nike byzantine infantry

[switze01]

Hi

How do the mixed bow/spear nike infantry form up
If you have 4 bow and 4 spear do they just go in 2
blocks like this bbss
bbss

or do the bow go behind the front rank of spear -
ssss
bbbb

Any ideas as if they go side by side surely the bow will
get no protection against kn/cv in a melee ?
even if their spear do ok it could disrupt the unit

Steve

[philqw78]

People normally deploy them 2 deep. Sp/Bw (Bow behind spear)

Since you can have 8 you can go 4 deep, Sp/Sp/Bw/Bw if needed. The third rank of bow still get to shoot in shooting and impact phases and you get POA for spears.

[bbotus]

Some people have tried the idea of the following formation
bbss
bbss
so they can get 3 bow shots , or
bbbb
ssss
for 4 bow shots
but then you have the problem of getting the spears back in front to stop the charge. The only way to change stands in a formation is to do several formation changes.

[Polkovnik]

People normally deploy them 2 deep. Sp/Bw (Bow behind spear)

Since you can have 8 you can go 4 deep, Sp/Sp/Bw/Bw if needed. The third rank of bow still get to shoot in shooting and impact phases and you get POA for spears.

I think you've got that wrong. The third rank of bow cannot shoot in this formation.

[bbotus]

I think you've got that wrong. The third rank of bow cannot shoot in this formation.

True. 3rd rank bows can only support shoot in impact.

[Polkovnik]

I think you've got that wrong. The third rank of bow cannot shoot in this formation.

True. 3rd rank bows can only support shoot in impact.

No, I'm pretty sure they can't even do that, as they are MF, and only LF in the 3rd rank can support shoot.

[bbotus]

I think you've got that wrong. The third rank of bow cannot shoot in this formation.

True. 3rd rank bows can only support shoot in impact.

No, I'm pretty sure they can't even do that, as they are MF, and only LF in the 3rd rank can support shoot.

Check out page 98. 2nd or 3rd rank, but not both, may support shoot at impact. Only bows can support shoot from the 3rd rank. Doesn't say anything about only allowing LF bows to support shoot. So MF can support shoot at infantry and mounted.

[petedalby]

Page 91 states that if the front rank does not have shooting capability then only the 2nd rank may shoot - so pretty clear that a 3rd rank cannot shoot in the shooting phase.

Page 82 only refers to LF being able to support shoot from a 3rd rank - which is slightly misleading beacuse page 98 is very clear that MF in a 3rd rank with bow can support shoot.

[Polkovnik]

Page 91 states that if the front rank does not have shooting capability then only the 2nd rank may shoot - so pretty clear that a 3rd rank cannot shoot in the shooting phase.

Page 82 only refers to LF being able to support shoot from a 3rd rank - which is slightly misleading beacuse page 98 is very clear that MF in a 3rd rank with bow can support shoot.

Yes, I was just looking in the shooting section, where it says "Other troops shoot only with bases in the 1st and 2nd ranks. (The effect of shooting by 3rd rank supporting light foot archers is dealt with in impact phase combat)." Which does seem to imply that only LF bow can support shoot from the 3rd rank.
But as you point out, later it says "They must be supporting from a 2nd or 3rd rank, but not both. Only troops with bow can support from a 3rd rank." Which does not rule out MF support shooting from a 3rd rank. My guess would be that the intention was that MF can only support from the second rank, but this is an oversight as this type of formation was not considered so it was not expected that MF bow would be in a third rank behind two ranks of non-bow.

[philqw78]

Page 91 states that if the front rank does not have shooting capability then only the 2nd rank may shoot - so pretty clear that a 3rd rank cannot shoot in the shooting phase.

Hmmph! Must have been a memory from sixth edition with the skutatoi archers somewhere deep.

Sorry Switze

[batesmotel]

Page 91 states that if the front rank does not have shooting capability then only the 2nd rank may shoot - so pretty clear that a 3rd rank cannot shoot in the shooting phase.

Page 82 only refers to LF being able to support shoot from a 3rd rank - which is slightly misleading beacuse page 98 is very clear that MF in a 3rd rank with bow can support shoot.

Yes, I was just looking in the shooting section, where it says "Other troops shoot only with bases in the 1st and 2nd ranks. (The effect of shooting by 3rd rank supporting light foot archers is dealt with in impact phase combat)." Which does seem to imply that only LF bow can support shoot from the 3rd rank.
But as you point out, later it says "They must be supporting from a 2nd or 3rd rank, but not both. Only troops with bow can support from a 3rd rank." Which does not rule out MF support shooting from a 3rd rank. My guess would be that the intention was that MF can only support from the second rank, but this is an oversight as this type of formation was not considered so it was not expected that MF bow would be in a third rank behind two ranks of non-bow.

I asked this at some point on the forum and RBS clarified that MF with bow may support shoot from the 3rd rank. The intent of allowing the Nikephorian infantry to have BGs with 4 HF + 4 MF is to allow them to optionally be deployed in the deep formations they used historically with the MF providing support in the 3rd rank.

Chris