Berlin Redux what is going on?

[jram82]

Hey

I'm on the first couple of turns in Berlin Redux (normal difficulty). I just quit and I'm honestly not sure I even want to try to complete this mission.

It's not that it's too hard really, it's just that incredibly weird things keep happening to me, I've never seen anything like it in all the many many previous Panzer Corps scenarios I have played.

I had an SE Tiger II with around 450 experience and a couple of leaders plus a 599 experience towed artillery unit (the best kind, I forget its exact name) standing right behind it. In walks 3 infantry units, the first one kills 6 Tiger II's, second one takes out 5 and the last one finishes the final 3 of my 14 strength Tiger II and kills it (the 599 experience artillery that fired defensively at them each time didn't seem to make any difference and they barely got a scratch from my artillery or the Tiger II). An ISU-122 anti-tank unit (with a very meager 6 in soft attack) then drives up and kills my 11 strength artillery unit in one strike (bombardment killed the first 4, it was 15 strength before). Does this seem normal? I have never seen anything like that before. Everything I have seen in the other scenarios I have played and everything I know about the relative strength of the units suggests this should be impossible.

I keep encountering relatively weak units, for example there are a bunch of T-34/43's coming at me from several sides. Normally this wouldn't worry me in the least with my strong core force of Tiger II's with supporting artillery, aircraft etc. but they keep just annihilating me. Doesn't matter if I'm fielding Tiger II and even my couple of Maus units (some of them with tons of experience because I upgraded old tanks) - each strike from inferior tanks like T-34/43 and the like take a bunch of strength out of my units and with the enemy's superior numbers it's a very short fight.

I think I have managed my prestige and core force wisely and I believe I have a very strong force. At least on paper, because in combat my units just get swept aside and crushed by units they normally beat without problems.

I fought my way through the first Berlin defense and that was probably the most fun mission I have ever played, very difficult for me but doable if I think and plan properly. But Berlin Redux is just in a word, weird.

If they were beating me with 400-500 experience IS-2's and lots of artillery and aircraft support I could understand that. But I'm losing to clearly inferior units over and over. My veteran units that have withstood the whole war and couldn't be any more experienced get crushed by enemy units they normally just run over. I'm taking up awesome defensive positions on river banks with artillery in my back, the enemy units just stroll into the river and attack me head on and easily break through. What is going on?

I'm starting to suspect that the developers tweaked the numbers for the final scenario to make it harder. If I was told all enemy strength numbers were doubled or tripled (so a tank with 15 hard attack now has 30 or 45) for this scenario what is happening to me would make a lot more sense with the results I'm seeing. Surely that cannot be the case?

I've lost tons of units in previous scenarios but it never seemed unfair like it does in Berlin Redux. I have to admit I rage quit and uninstalled Panzer Corps with little appetite for trying again after this frustrating attempt at the final mission.

Is anyone else seeing similar strange results in Berlin Redux unlike any other scenario?

[boredatwork]

I can't say that I've noticed any irregularities - the Soviets hit their hardest in this scenario (as might be expected) but IMO not really unexpectedly so given their average experience (4 star) and strength (14) in the scenario. It is beatable, and depending upon your core it is possible (at least on a second play through) to achieve a DV without losing a unit (just).

[MartyWard]

Hey

I'm on the first couple of turns in Berlin Redux (normal difficulty). I just quit and I'm honestly not sure I even want to try to complete this mission.

It's not that it's too hard really, it's just that incredibly weird things keep happening to me, I've never seen anything like it in all the many many previous Panzer Corps scenarios I have played.

I had an SE Tiger II with around 450 experience and a couple of leaders plus a 599 experience towed artillery unit (the best kind, I forget its exact name) standing right behind it. In walks 3 infantry units, the first one kills 6 Tiger II's, second one takes out 5 and the last one finishes the final 3 of my 14 strength Tiger II and kills it (the 599 experience artillery that fired defensively at them each time didn't seem to make any difference and they barely got a scratch from my artillery or the Tiger II). An ISU-122 anti-tank unit (with a very meager 6 in soft attack) then drives up and kills my 11 strength artillery unit in one strike (bombardment killed the first 4, it was 15 strength before). Does this seem normal? I have never seen anything like that before. Everything I have seen in the other scenarios I have played and everything I know about the relative strength of the units suggests this should be impossible.

Were you in a city hex? Infantry will make toast out of tank in those hexes. The Russian infantry is pretty strong in close assault, particularly the Guards, SMG and Engineer units.

[jram82]

Were you in a city hex? Infantry will make toast out of tank in those hexes. The Russian infantry is pretty strong in close assault, particularly the Guards, SMG and Engineer units.

Yes that was in a city hex. I know defending those with infantry should in theory be better. In my experience from previous scenarios I have kind of come to the conclusion that it isn't though - if I defend city hexes with my best infantry (400-500 experience pioneers and wehrmacht infantry) they get decimated even faster. In the previous Berlin defense I had a 400+ experience pioneer with strength 14 take 9 casualties from a single infantry unit attacking it from a river hex (isn't there supposed to be a strong penalty for attacking from inside a river hex? I always have a hard time if I try that) while I was in a city hex with 3 entrenchment (the enemy unit took 9 casualties also, but it's worse for me because they have so many more units so they can just attack a 2nd time and my unit is dead).

Usually when I put 400+ experience Tiger II's in city hexes with 1 or 2 artillery behind them they can defend very well against infantry (or tank obviously) attacks and take maybe 2 casualties or so while dealing out maybe 4 times as many casualties to the enemy. So because of bad experiences with my infantry dying very easily I started putting more strong tanks in the key defensive points, even in city hexes as long as I have good artillery support for them. It has worked very well but all of a sudden now it doesn't in Berlin Redux.

[boredatwork]

My experience has been the opposite - in Breslau/Berlin/Berlin Redux my infantry rule the city. A 13-15str Wehr 43 can 1 shot even the strongest russian tank sitting on a city hex while suffering minimal damage. Generally my tank units avoid city hexes like the plague. What I do fear is their artillery - consequently after the initial breakout out of my general hunting armoured force, virtually all of my airforce and any artillery within range is committed to wearing down their artillery ASAP so it can't surpress my units.

It's worth pointing out that your goal in the city itself is not to destroy the soviets, but rather delay the destruction of the bunker long enough for the rest of your force to eliminate the generals. Defend the smallest area possible in order to free up units to form a reserve to allow wounded units (and those low on ammo) to cycle off the front line for replacements - and do so frequently - an artillery piece with full ammo is worth far more than killing a soviet unit with your last or second last round then running out in the soviet turn.

Unlike most other scenarios in the game it can actually be more effective to wound 2 units instead of killing 1: If you kill 1, another unit will just step forward to take it's place - leaving you facing 2+ full strength attacks next turn. Wound 2 on the otherhand and the AI will attempt to repair the units in place, continuing to block the hexes and preventing more forces from taking their place - removing 2 attacks it can throw at you next turn allowing you to divert your attention elsewhere.

[brettz123]

The reason it is different in Redux is that most of the infantry is Guard, SMG, or Engineers. These guys will wipe out Tiger IIs all day long if given the change. I am guessing you really dont have the best artillery. Go with nebelwerfers. And of course upgrade to as many Maus as you can.

[boredatwork]

Go with nebelwerfers. And of course upgrade to as many Maus as you can.

My 10.5cm lFHs and Panthers would disagree!

[brettz123]

Go with nebelwerfers. And of course upgrade to as many Maus as you can.

My 10.5cm lFHs and Panthers would disagree!

Well they can disagree all they want they still aren't better .

30cm Nebelwerfer has an SA of 30 while your 10.5 only has 9. Ouch

I won't even go into the Panther vs Tiger II vs Maus as it is pretty obvious which ones are better in a take on a horde of dudes in a city scenario.

[boredatwork]

Range 3, Ammo 6(Wespe) or 8(towed). And infantry are best suited to dealing with hordes of soviets in a city scenario, allowing your Panthers to move twice as fast to kill the generals and/or move about in the city to be where they need to be to counter dangerous situations. My Only Maus sat on the airfield all scenario and maybe fired 2-3 times - finishing off units crippled by my FJ Bde.

Just saying Me262s, Maus, and big guns aren't necessarily required to have a viable chance to win.

(on FM, lost 1 wespe on the last (12) turn because I was impatient and ninjaed Zhukov instead of dealing with the massive armored reserves first. )

[brettz123]

Cool screen shots. I love seeing other peoples CORE. Yours is way different from mine. I am going to try and literally kill every enemy unit on the board. Need the Maus' for that.

[Kamerer]

I don't think trying to clear everything on the map is the way to go.

I played this the first time a week or two ago. I also found it very frustrating. I ended with the map generally cleared and still a few turns short of being able to capture the bolshie field marshalls/generals. I play at the FM level and had been getting decisive victories in all my prior encounters in GC45 by this time.

I think the victory conditions in this are only to get the generals and hold the Fuehrerbunker; the objective hexes are not a criteria for victory. Having just suffered through the bloodbath and struggle of the prior Berlin scenario, I think I was not focusing on that and was valuing them, and making attempts to wait through all the attacks then break-out to recapture the objective hexes and most of the city. I also waited to long to launch my breakout south/southeast, and focused on defending the broader interior water/canal bounded inner zone. Too large an area when the criteria for victory is breaking out east/south and taking some hero objectives.

I did not immediately replay the game, but rather I'm going to work back through the entire GC and then hit it with what I learn. But these were my immediate post battle criteria of what I did wrong:

1) Defended too large a central perimeter as in "Berlin"; reduce it to smaller size around Command Bunker
2) Use the units that leaves extra (vs. Berlin) to force strong break-out right away to south/southeast to go for opponent commanders
3) Mix in rocket forces
4) Upgrade Panthers to Tiger II's or Maus; they are simply liabilities in this scenario

Look at boredatwork's tactical map in the lower right corner of his screen shots. That's the way to do it I believe, not clearing the map or going for objectives.

As mentioned, never put a tank on a city hex unless backed by one or two artillery units; the infantry will eat them up. I think with the stratgey above the scenario could be finished rather quickly compared to the total turns allotted.

[brettz123]

I don't think trying to clear everything on the map is the way to go.

I already finished it without clearing the entire board and didn't think it was that hard. I want to try and clear the entire board just to see if I can do it and still get a DV. Going all out to kill the 3 officers only took me 15 turns and I didn't think it was all that hard. A good mix of Maus and Tiger IIs made it pretty easy with lots of rocket artillery (both towed and self-propelled). I have to admit this and the original Berlin are probably my least favorite scenarios.

[Kamerer]

You are right, if you start out the correct way, it's likely not that hard. I just used the wrong strategy and was so frustrated. Also I was addressing that comment more to the OP, sorry I did not make that clear.

I agree it was one of my "least favorite" I think. Grueling tedius work, much like the original battle was. The game creators certainly captured it well.

[brettz123]

I agree it was one of my "least favorite" I think. Grueling tedius work, much like the original battle was. The game creators certainly captured it well.

I agree these just get tedious. I thought Stalingrad was bad enough but still felt good finishing. These I just didn't enjoy from start to end. Hopefully they stay away from these massive city defense scenarios in the future.

[Kamerer]

Well, with the eastern front done, no big ones to fear in the West. Perhaps we can thank Gen. von Choltitz for that; he was the one who ignored Hitler and made Paris a de facto "open city."

[MartyWard]

Were you in a city hex? Infantry will make toast out of tank in those hexes. The Russian infantry is pretty strong in close assault, particularly the Guards, SMG and Engineer units.

Yes that was in a city hex. I know defending those with infantry should in theory be better. In my experience from previous scenarios I have kind of come to the conclusion that it isn't though - if I defend city hexes with my best infantry (400-500 experience pioneers and wehrmacht infantry) they get decimated even faster. In the previous Berlin defense I had a 400+ experience pioneer with strength 14 take 9 casualties from a single infantry unit attacking it from a river hex (isn't there supposed to be a strong penalty for attacking from inside a river hex? I always have a hard time if I try that) while I was in a city hex with 3 entrenchment (the enemy unit took 9 casualties also, but it's worse for me because they have so many more units so they can just attack a 2nd time and my unit is dead).

Usually when I put 400+ experience Tiger II's in city hexes with 1 or 2 artillery behind them they can defend very well against infantry (or tank obviously) attacks and take maybe 2 casualties or so while dealing out maybe 4 times as many casualties to the enemy. So because of bad experiences with my infantry dying very easily I started putting more strong tanks in the key defensive points, even in city hexes as long as I have good artillery support for them. It has worked very well but all of a sudden now it doesn't in Berlin Redux.

I lost 6-7 5 star units in this one, the most I ever lost in any scenario. This was the first scenario where I felt the Russian infantry was equal to mine. What I could do to his units, he could do to mine so I found it very chalenging and enjoyable. I just concentrated on getting the Generals and finished on turn 26 or so.

[7bua]

Just finished the GC, i found Berlin Redux is easier than Berlin. This map doesn't need sophisticated planning.

Just wrap the bunker with Heavy Armors + AA , and the AI will just stand adoring your Greatness You could crush them all but i wouldn't bother to do that.







Hold the Airfield like the Bunker above, and the rest could steamroll all the way to the Generals

[boredatwork]

I want to try and clear the entire board just to see if I can do it and still get a DV.

Got to 12 left (excluding the 5 BT-5s that spawned on turn 40) before time ran out and I had to kill Zhukov. If the game had gone to 41-42 turns I would have had it.

[blacknight13]

i found zhukov and rokossovsky....wheres the 3rd general?

[blacknight13]

any chance of a 1946 gc ?