Defensive Fire

[quackstheking]

A situation came up in last nights game where we not sure of what to. This is the position:-



The spent and disordered Russian Dragoons declared an assault on the spent Uhlans and both passed their CMT's to charge/Counter Charge.

However, do the Infantry on the left of the Dragoons get to shoot at them in the Defensive Fire phase. We know if the Dragoons were attacking Infantry they would (and Terry has clarified this) but against counter charging Cavalry we weren't sure. Terry has made a comment (I seem to recall) that the infantry don't shoot (after all the Cavalry don't pause on the way in) but it does seem odd they can charge across the front of the infantry without recieving any fire because this is a Cavalry vs Cavalry assault.

Thoughts?

Don

[hazelbark]

Terry has said that any assualting unit is fired at by a unit that is passes through the close range zone.

p32 first sentence of 2nd paragraph of defensive fire is I believe what he cites.

So the counter charge would seem irrelevant for this purpose.

Note it is tough to see the angle in the photo but it appears the Dragoons might not have beena ble to avoid the infantry in the assault. Note the wheeling during charge on p 29. You can't wheel past the opponents center and it appears that may have been required here.

Aren't 25mm the best?

[gibby]

It does appear that way but we both knew that was not possible because the previous charge had seen both units become spent and the lancers retire which actually meant my foot had wheeled to get a short range shot in the enemy fire phase hoping to make it drop 2 cohesion levels and break, which is why Don charged. As we know now, I could have had a shot. Only our 3rd game so we are missing the odd bit. Getting better though.
thanks
Jim

[quackstheking]

Dan,

28mm are "the best" but 15mm is cheaper, easier to store and game with and allows you to build up many armys!!!

In a question on Intercept charges in May Terry said "An intercept move by cavalry is a minimum of 2MU and a maximum of 4MU. (although the minimum is reduced if the distance to the assaulting unit is less then 4MU).
The intercepting unit must end in a position where it will be contacted by the charging unit.

In the example given the Austrian Cavalry can intercept and will stop the charge on the infantry - who will now become spectators to the cavalry combat about to occur."


This was a situation where Cavalry were within 2 MU of foot and having declared an assault on the foot, were counter charged by Cavalry.

What is not clear is, does the Infantry becoming "spectators" mean for the melee only or happen after they fire?!

Also if the infantry do fire and stop or retire the charge, does the counter charge still continue on the basis that they started their counter charging at the same time? If they don't continue, do they remain where they started (on the basis the assault doesn't follow through), at halfway (on the basis that is where they should get to) or at 4MU (the longest distance a counter charge can go)?

Don

[hazelbark]

In a question on Intercept charges in May Terry said "An intercept move by cavalry is a minimum of 2MU and a maximum of 4MU. (although the minimum is reduced if the distance to the assaulting unit is less then 4MU).
The intercepting unit must end in a position where it will be contacted by the charging unit.

In the example given the Austrian Cavalry can intercept and will stop the charge on the infantry - who will now become spectators to the cavalry combat about to occur."


This was a situation where Cavalry were within 2 MU of foot and having declared an assault on the foot, were counter charged by Cavalry.

What is not clear is, does the Infantry becoming "spectators" mean for the melee only or happen after they fire?!

This is a touch different to the OP. Page 32 right column 2nd bullet is clear. If "A" succesfully intercepts "X" trying to charge "B" then "B" may not fire at "X" not matter what.

This seems odd given they other facts that everyone else can shoot at assaulters who pass through close range. But I suppose this was an effort to limit gamey ploys.

[hazelbark]

Also if the infantry do fire and stop or retire the charge, does the counter charge still continue on the basis that they started their counter charging at the same time? If they don't continue, do they remain where they started (on the basis the assault doesn't follow through), at halfway (on the basis that is where they should get to) or at 4MU (the longest distance a counter charge can go)?

This needs Terry or Mike

[panda2]

Sequence of play p.24.
-Counterchargers are moved;
-Charges move to 2 MU if they will be fired upon;
-Defensive fire resolved and results applied;
-Chargers move into contact if allowed.

Since the counterchargers must move before defensive fire the distance moved must be independent of its outcome (i.e. always half the distance to the assaulting unit at the begining of the assault phase with a max of 4 MU).

Hope that helps.

Andy D

[gibby]

Thanks, it does.

cheers
Jim

[plato]

Personally I would like to see a clarification or really probably an Errata about this topic of charging past units. this seems to be a major issue of confusion in the rules. For one, it is not clear in the rule book and seems to constantly pop up in game situations. A forum post by the moderators is nice but something needs to be done to officially address this issue. We have had these type of situations come up at least 3 times in the month or so we have been playing the game.

One thing that always bugs me a bit about this is seeing light cavalry declare a charge at a target at its max range which could possibly see it charge past other units depending on positioning. This seems to happen where cavalry units charge past squares because they really have little to no fear of the effects of fire from charging past a square.

Jeremy

[hazelbark]

Personally I would like to see a clarification or really probably an Errata about this topic of charging past units. this seems to be a major issue of confusion in the rules. For one, it is not clear in the rule book and seems to constantly pop up in game situations. A forum post by the moderators is nice but something needs to be done to officially address this issue. We have had these type of situations come up at least 3 times in the month or so we have been playing the game.

One thing that always bugs me a bit about this is seeing light cavalry declare a charge at a target at its max range which could possibly see it charge past other units depending on positioning. This seems to happen where cavalry units charge past squares because they really have little to no fear of the effects of fire from charging past a square.

Agreed. Although it was an author not a moderator who posted the point and yes he should put in a FAQ ASAP.

[Trailape]

Sorry, off topic but:
"28mm are "the best" but 15mm is cheaper"
Not so. 28mm Plastics are MUCH cheaper than 15 (18?) mm metal.
Well, at least where I live.
Cheers

[terrys]

> An assaulting unit is fired at by every enemy unit (capable of firing at close range) that it passes within 2Mu of.
> All dice hit on a 5+, except that the target themselves hit on a 4+ if the cavalry start at least partially to their front.
> Intercepting units cannot be fired at in the assault phase.
> The target cannot fire at the chargers IF they were successfully intercepted, but could fire at other units.
> Units that were not the target of the charge may still fire at chargers who are intercepted, (assume they move to the point of interception), and if these alone halt the charge, the intercept is also cancelled. (since they would not now be contacted by the assaulting unit).

[gibby]

Thank you Terry that helps greatly.
Jim

[hazelbark]

> An assaulting unit is fired at by every enemy unit (capable of firing at close range) that it passes within 2Mu of.
> All dice hit on a 5+, except that the target themselves hit on a 4+ if the cavalry start at least partially to their front.
> Intercepting units cannot be fired at in the assault phase.
> The target cannot fire at the chargers IF they were successfully intercepted, but could fire at other units.
> Units that were not the target of the charge may still fire at chargers who are intercepted, (assume they move to the point of interception), and if these alone halt the charge, the intercept is also cancelled. (since they would not now be contacted by the assaulting unit).

My suggestion is this goes into an FAQ

[terrys]

My suggestion is this goes into an FAQ

It will.
The next 2 FAQs are a) commanders and command points, and b) Firing
I think a) is the closest to being finished but I'll review and consider putting out the one for firing first.

[Blathergut]

*bumps this up to answer deadtorioussss' question

[bahdahbum]

Yes except that from memory you always hit cavalry on 5-6 or am I wrong ...I do not have my reference sheet with me .

[Blathergut]

I don't think so. Close range fire hits on '4' unless chargers come at you from outside of your front.

[deadtorius]

Close range shooting by a unit other than the target of the charge hit on 5.
Question is do the normal POA's for rear or flank shooting apply here? Personally I would like to see it stay at 5's since you are shooting at a fast moving target as it flys past as it were.

[Blathergut]

Where does it say this? Page 53 states chargers are hit on '4' if:

-cav begin assault at least partially to front of shooters
-inf. start assault within 1 base width of front of shooters

If these are not met, then hit on a '5.'