Differential "suppression" of armour

[GottaLove88s]

Guys, I'm not sure if this is really for the Open Beta forum, or for the wishlist for everything else... but since Santa Claus is busy this June... is it possible to have differential suppression of enemy armour? Right now anything with tracks or wheels isn't really suppressed when morale is <50... ok, it can't fire in its own turn, but it can fire (many, many times) during its opponent's turn... and if any of those shots works out, this supposedly suppressed vehicle will probably get its morale back above 50... Real world example: I've just discovered a King Tiger... blitzed it with direct bombard from two Priests, cutting the Tiger's morale down to 25... Then I brought in an M36 tank destroyer to make the kill... the supposedly suppressed, morale 25 Tiger toasted my M36 at six spaces away, diagonally to the left... this increases the Tiger's morale back up 51... I totally get that crew of armoured vehicles might be made of sterner stuff than an under fire infantryman, but could you tweak the behaviour, so that at morale between 0 and 50, "suppressed" armour will still fight back if you get too close (as it does now), between 0 and -50 it might fight back, but ONLY ONCE, and below -50 that's it, they're scared stupid and won't fight back... Just a thought?

[pipfromslitherine]

We can look at the logic, but I think it prevents morale being a little too powerful a tool against heavy armour. We don't want you to be able to suppress and then execute at your leisure.

Cheers

Pip

[GottaLove88s]

Thanks Pip, Definitely worth taking a look at this. Otherwise morale is totally meaningless against German heavy tanks. To give you an idea, the example of the King Tiger above, which had already had morale cut to 25 by direct bombardments from two Priests, killed my distant approaching M36 to get its morale back up to 51, then ran off to skulk in hiding for awhile... it came back a few turns later with morale of 100... Once again, I had to hit it with both of my Priests, cutting morale back to 12... Stupidly, I attacked it with another M36, this time without even moving... Once again, the Tiger killed the M36 and its morale shot back up to 51... I bombarded the Tiger with a Calliope and its morale slumped back to -2... It's easy to predict what's going to happen next, sigh... The Tiger is going to hide for a few turns and it will come back with morale 100 again... Sadly I only have so many M36s to lose, and my Priests won't always be in the right place to "suppress" it... Doesn't this make a mockery of the morale system?

[pipfromslitherine]

I think to some extent we don't want you chasing suppressed units around the map with impunity. If they are suppressed then they are firing at 50% accuracy penalty, but even so remain a threat. You may have suppressed them, but you still need to take them out in a sensible way. I think the balance is about right at the moment between rewarding suppression, and not making it too much of an uberweapon against tough armour.

Cheers

Pp

[GottaLove88s]

I agree that it's nuts to chase Panthers/Tigers with M5s, but an M36 is supposed to be a "tank destroyer", with the highest armour piercing power of any Allied tank destroyer at 81, and the strongest armour of any Allied tank destroyer at 46... Surely the point is to attack/defend against an extremely strong enemy unit that is attacking you and threatening your actions in the theatre... So, if none of your ground units can scratch it, the only way to crack it is to bombard it until it's weak enough to approach with a (very strong) ground unit... Unfortunately, under the current rules, a King Tiger is NEVER weak enough to approach with a ground unit... unless you can do it from behind, with several M36s in hunt mode, if your enemy is rash enough not to prevent that with infantry... But even taking one space towards it, in hunt mode, with morale supposedly 25 and still six squares away, BOOM, one M36 "tank destroyer" gone... even turning towards it, without actually moving, taking a shot when its morale is 12, BOOM, another M36 "tank destroyer" gone... A chance to chase a King Tiger would be a fine thing... Just looking at one results in at least one and more likely several lost units... If we're not supposed to kill them, then you're granting them licence to attack with immunity, to absorb whatever we can throw at them, then to kill more of our units with response fire, possibly to hide somewhere, and then to come back... Panthers/Tigers were good, but they're not supposed to be immune... right?

[GottaLove88s]

Thinking more on this, I realise that you have to "protect" the German heavies because of the artificial surrender rules, where units surrender if they're attacked at morale<0. Surely, we need to improve the surrender criteria, not to make German heavy tanks permanently immune (in the hands of a smart opponent who will always protect their rear with infantry and will always retreat them to recover).

[GottaLove88s]

Alternatively, if morale is intentionally not applicable to armour, then could we replace morale with an indicator of physical damage (for anything where morale isn't being used any more)? No matter how tough it is, any tank that gets hit with six direct bombardments from Priests and Calliopes, plus a side shot from an M36, isn't realistically going to hide for three turns and come back fully repaired...

[pipfromslitherine]

It's something to consider. We will have to keep watch on the results coming out of the MP matches where people are choosing forces. I'm not convinced that we should penalise someone who is playing almost perfectly as you describe above. On the one hand, yes, that is a very tough nut to crack, but on the other they are deploying a lot of forces just to screen a few of their tanks.

Nonetheless, this is more Iain's area than mine, so I shall let him dig into it more with you .

Cheers

Pip

[GottaLove88s]

Thanks Pip, I need to be more precise in my explanation. His units in the area: One King Tiger, one scout to screen... versus my units in the area: two Priests, two Calliopes, four M36s, two Shermans, plus a ranger and a scout watching in hope the other side of his scout... net result, Priest and Calliope bombardment moves used, twice, for no result, two M36s destroyed, one for moving one space, the other for firing without even moving... Personal realisation that bombarding a King Tiger to zero morale and moving in an M36 from the side is just going to uselessly cost a lot of moves and probably my last two M36s... ... If we're playing a newbie, or somebody in a hurry, it's crackable... they'll eventually move the Tiger or the scout... but if you're playing somebody who knows what they're doing... I may as well just move all of my M36s into range, point my ass at him and say shoot me; the bombardments are a waste of my time and his lol

[GottaLove88s]

Re-reading some of this I guess it looks like I'm a villain with a grudge (evil guy laugher, hahaHA) just because I can't easily take on King Tigers and knock them out at will... so here's a more full background to the game with the impossible to kill King Tiger... We're pretty evenly matched, with 3 Panthers killed for 3 Sherman 76s (that wasn't easy because the other guy really knew what he was doing so it took getting five 76s and two M36s behind the Panthers and keeping two Priests close enough to support), scratch 3 scouts both sides (which you have to do as the Allies to blind his stronger tanks), he's got more of my infantry, I've got more of his artillery... The challenge is that as an Allied player versus MUCH stronger (some might say, immune, German tanks which can absorb anything you throw at them, kill their attackers in response fire, retreat for three turns, and then come back fully fixed) the only way to play is (i) blind him (take out all of his infantry at every possible opportunity, especially his scouts), (ii) use maps to find ways behind his tanks without being seen (not always possible for every tank within the time limits of the game), and (iii) never EVER take him on front to front (much as it's desperately tempting and frustrating, don't even think about taking a stationary pop shot from the side, even when his morale is <50, even with something as powerful as an M36, unless you're prepared to lose it... or lose them in my case)

[GottaLove88s]

Role reversal: Just tried this the other way, as Germans vs Allies in Winter Village scenario. He'd brought up infantry and three Shermans, got three diagonally side/front shots into my Tiger or King Tiger (sorry, can't remember which, but it was big and beautiful )... I'm sitting there watching the replay thinking Oops, that was dumb of me to put it there... But, gosh, end result, the panzercat's morale slipped from 125 to 115... and then it killed one of the Shermans in reaction fire... wisely, his infantry decided it was safer to stay in the trees... In this particular location, there is no way for him to come round behind me in the number of moves left in the game

[IainMcNeil]

While suppressed tanks do get a shot it is at a significant hit penalty so it usually misses and its there to keep you honest and not treat them like dead units. It sounds like its working as intended. You were just unlucky they hit you. Next time be aware there is a risk to assaulting a suppressed monster.

[Brenmusik]

"You were just unlucky they hit you. Next time be aware there is a risk to assaulting a suppressed monster".

So not much point in suppression Why not make the suppressed tank's shot subject to a "roll of the dice" that would keep both sides honest.

[IainMcNeil]

It is - it has a 50% reduced chance to hit so its already covered.

[GottaLove88s]

Thanks Iain,

I take your point that it would be unrealistic if light tanks (or even light-footed infantry) could chase down and kill Tigers and Panthers, etc, but the model of 50% inaccuracy when suppressed doesn't appear to be working...

I've been playing this faaaaaar too much since your 2.0.4 release (ask Pip ) so, from experience, it takes a team of at least 3-4 Allied tanks, preferably plus 2 or 3 artillery and/or mortar units, to knock out a King Tiger or Panther (and it won't be possible to make an actual kill unless you've managed to sneak something else in really, really close for a final blow). Even then, the Allies should expect to lose, on average, at least 2 of its tanks involved in any attack (see TigerTrap screenshot).

Close range AT guns are ineffective. A 57mm has 0% chance of taking out even a lowly Tiger, even side-on, from two squares away (possibly because of a "target agility penalty"... what's this? Aren't Tigers supposed to be slow and clunky with unreliable traction?). Taking the shot a turn later, out of desperation because it wasn't going to get any closer or with a juicier angle, resulted in goodnight dear AT gun (see Dead57mm screenshot) after a single reaction fire from the, err, target, despite the 57 ambushing from heavy forest with 55% cover.

In contrast to Allies' feeble firepower, King Tigers and Panthers rarely miss in player-directed or indirect reaction shots... On average, a shot from a high-end Allied tank (76 or M36), from the side or a diagonal angle 3-5 spaces away, reduces a Tiger or Panther's morale by perhaps 10-20 points... and you can keep firing as much as you like but your chances of killing it remain slim unless you can get its morale below zero and take a final shot from immediately adjacent... these monsters will happily suck up -80 morale, kill 3 or 4 Allied tanks in reaction fire, then roll away and return fully healed a few turns later... The reverse situation of similarly placed side or diagonal shot FROM a King Tiger or Panther seems to score a better than 50% chance of killing the Allied tank outright. One shot.

I may just be expressing the same sentiments as real world Sherman tank commanders in 1944... ie. I don't want to die, please give me a Panther instead... but here's a few questions and maybe some crazy ideas, if you're willing...

(1) Can your MP game servers be programmed to count every time a tank fires on a tank, in direct or in reaction fire? Lots of us would love to know what the kill/shoot ratio is for Allies versus Germans?
(2) Since introducing v2 Open Beta, what's the German game win to Allied win ratio? I can win 90% of the time as a German but only 25% as the Allies (that may be intentional but it's not historically accurate)
(3) Your 50% accuracy penalty on a suppressed Tiger in reaction fire is interesting... I assume a King Tiger's base accuracy is extremely high... what's the power x base x accuracy difference for a King Tiger versus a plain vanilla Sherman? And what are all of the eg. "target agility" penalties applied to an Ally firing on German armour?
(4) Could that 50% accuracy penalty be scaled (for all armour, to be fair, not just German tanks)? So morale <50, reaction fire penalised at 50% accuracy. Morale <0, reaction fire penalised at eg. 25%. Morale <-50, penalised at 10%. These monsters are almost unkillable so they can sit with morale well below -50 and still take out half of an Allied attack team, even if the attack team doesn't do anything stupid (like move one space or take a shot, rather than sitting there like a rabbit )
(5) If the answers to questions (1), (2) and (3) feel biaised in favour of the Germans, would you consider any or all of (i) significantly increase the price of German heavy tanks, (ii) give the Allies more to spend, (iii) give the Allies exclusive (or faster recovering) morale rally/heal buttons (realistically emulating Allies' access to more kit and crew through 1944-45), (iv) let the Allies buy Sherman Fireflies (from your Normandy scenarios) or M26 Pershing heavy tanks (ok only 300 shipped to Europe before VE Day but they were there)

Thanks for an awesome game. I don't love losing as the Allies but the intellectual puzzle to at least scratch out some harm is pretty darned addictive.

PS. Ok, ok, gloves down time, darn it: Heck, if you don't believe me Iain, here's a wee challenge. I'll happily play you as a German versus your Allies in Meeting Engagement, maybe as a real-time AAR so that others can watch what we're up to, to illustrate the unkillability of German heavies? No cheating tho!! Interested...? Panzer rollen!!

[enric]

You're right (GottaLove88s) there is to much advantage using these monsters even with the 2.0.4 balanced points.
The reaction fire from a Tiger/Panther near always hit and kill.

Sure there should be different solutions the avoid that german supremacy in the game, some could be:
1) Firing at the tracks to immobilize the tank,
2) Do not allow a force selection to have more than two choose between Tiger/Panther, i.e (2 Tigers, or 2 Panthers, or 1Tiger and 1 Panther)
I was playing agains three Tigers and three Panthers (I think with the old system points before 2.0.4) the german put one of his monsters in each flag and do nothing more, all other german forces were killed, but I was unable to kill any of these tanks even if they were much suppressed.
An engineer from a building attacking from the side a KingTigers had no more than 60% of chance to win the assault, firing a charge just the 0%. A bazooka firing at the side of a Tiger got 0%.

[GottaLove88s]

Hey Enric, Nice. You're on to something here!

Sure there should be different solutions the avoid that german supremacy in the game, some could be:
1) Firing at the tracks to immobilize the tank,

It's worth checking out real world after action reports to see what the US Army learned about how to crack German armour. If AARs are to be believed, Allied bazookas could actually kill a German heavy from the right angle and at a close enough range (in BA 2.0.4. you'd be lucky to knock off a 20 point morale deduction from almost any angle; and you'd be highly unlikely to survive the attempt).

Your idea of disabling engines or immobilising tracks is really rather clever (and fits with what the US Army went for when kills weren't possible). Take a look at -> http://www.90thidpg.us/Equipment/Articl ... index.html

If the game engine can't give us a kill for a point blank bazooka shot from the side, how about a chance to win a five turn immobilisation period?

Scenario: US bazooka shoots a rocket (or infantryman throws a charge at the panzer's tracks, or over the engine, etc)... the game runs a randomisation test to calculate if (i) you killed it (right now, forget it, that's practically impossible for a BA infantryman vs a German heavy), (ii) you immobilised it (flash the warning "IMMOBILISED" over the unit, and now it can't move for five turns while its crew attempt to make a repair; attacks during this time are highly impactful on crew morale), (iii) the tank got away with the usual minor morale hit and it can still move and fire (in BA, expect your infantryman to die, no matter how well hidden they might look), or (iv) no effect on the tank... ... ... Might that work?

Thinking more on this, how do ambushes work? Can an infantryman ambush, invisibly, from immediately adjacent to a panzer, or will they always be spotted and fired on in reaction? For example, I'm in a row of houses diagonally behind a Panther. I've placed a scout nearby so I know my opponent doesn't have any infantry to see me. I use an engineer to make a charge attack. It fails but I knock 20 points off morale. In BA, the tank will see me immediately. But in the real world, the panzer crew heard an (awfully close and mighty scary) explosion from behind. They haven't got a clue which house (or trench or hole) that my charge just came from. They might shoot a house or tree (or several) through guesswork, to suppress me at least. If panzers had been able to detect immediately adjacent infantry that was behind or to their sides, with the ease that BA lets them, the first two weeks after D-Day might not have worked out the way that they did.

BA accurately represents the overwhelming strength of German heavy armour, but in reality, somehow, the Allies did win WW2... so either they achieved it through clever techniques, numerical superiority, troop reinforcements and kit replacements/upgrades, airpower... or they threw one heck of a lot of impossibly lucky serial dice rolls... As it stands, 2.0.4 doesn't give us any of those options (But, yes, you know we still love it, so pleeeeeeeease keep up your incredible work! )

[enric]

Tanks buttoned up had a really poor visibility, a buttoned up tank fired or ambushed from a rear o side adjacent building will not see from where they've been fired probably 90% of times. The game do not take the buttoned up status in account, if possible this will make a difference.

A immobilized tank will need that the crew go out to repair it, so making the crew vulnerable to infantry fire, or stay buttoned up and not being able to repair it.

I think all those suggestions are more difficult to add to BA that simple do not allow more than 2 of these big tanks. This do not means that I (we) will not really appreciate these improvements .

[GottaLove88s]

Tanks buttoned up had a really poor visibility, a buttoned up tank fired or ambushed from a rear o side adjacent building will not see from where they've been fired probably 90% of times. The game do not take the buttoned up status in account, if possible this will make a difference.

A immobilized tank will need that the crew go out to repair it, so making the crew vulnerable to infantry fire, or stay buttoned up and not being able to repair it.

I think all those suggestions are more difficult to add to BA that simple do not allow more than 2 of these big tanks. This do not means that I (we) will not really appreciate these improvements .

Like the way you're thinking! Realistic line of sight reductions and/or penalties on reaction fire (to the sides or the rear) for "buttoned up" tanks would make a huuuuuuge difference to fighting Tigers or Panthers...

The challenge for Slitherine (sorry guys! ) is that they've done an incredible job of preserving historical accuracy (German heavy tanks were a nightmare) within a fun, simple and playable game engine (let's face it, despite the pain, we're all still out there trying to figure out how on earth to break even as Allies versus impossible odds).

That works great for the Germans because it gives them monster tanks that can't be killed (the only measure of strength for armour is morale and that's essentially irrelevant for a German heavy, if you keep retreating it to recover when you need to). But it doesn't work for the Allies because historical accuracy in their favour means all sorts of things that are more complicated to design into the game (eg. realistic LOS reductions and reaction fire penalties for "buttoned up" tanks, close range ambushes resulting in immobilisation with highly exposed crews forced to do repairs, occasionally lucky point blank shots from bazookas... let's face it, has ANYONE managed to pop a King Tiger with a solo bazooka yet? Not me).

The easy fixes, as you say, are limiting German access to uncrackable kit, either through explicit number limits or through pricing (so German players are genuinely forced to choose between tanks or infantry; right now, we can easily afford plenty of both), by lifting Allied numerical superiority (through pricing or freebies), or by giving Allies access to better 1944-45 equipment (Fireflies or M26s). Without that, for now, it's going to be more fun playing as Germans (if you like winning) but you'll get a better brain workout (puzzle solving) as the US...

[enric]

I agree that BA it's a good game and all we say here is to try to make it better so Slitherine people don't have to think we are complaining.

The problem of force selection is that the selection don't need to be realistic. I found playing a street scenario with a german side near without infantry, even with these monster, in real life the german will not deal with taking a village without infantry.
Maybe, as in the old Squad Leader, putting the flag in the building will help, another option would be forcing teams to be more real. The teams were assembled trying to equilibrate, in a football team no everyone could be forward.