Any useful techniques for Snipers?

[flakfernrohr]

A long time ago I started a thread about snipers and the use of them as units in Panzer Corps. It was batted around some and mostly the same conclusion was finally reached. In Panzer Corps as it stands (and stood), a sniper unit has no real practical use either offensive or defensive. Does that still hold true or has someone used "snipers" in a scenario or campaign effectively?

We have a number of good interesting Sniper icons, but why? They offer no firepower to speak about. Has anyone discovered a way to use such a unit in the game? Lots of things have made the game so much better and some really creative players have outstanding strategy and a very firm grasp on the statistics and characteristics of all the units by now, so I wondered it the role of a sniper unit in Panzer Corps has changed from teats on a boar hog.

I can think of ways to incorporate their particular skills into an existing Infantry unit to add to its traits like spotting distances, etc. Anything else?

If the game's AI was changed in such a way that a sniper could be effective against initiative (willingness to fight or attack/defend) and change the effectiveness in spotting enemy units, maybe they could be of some use. Otherwise I really don't know.

[bebro]

I have Scout Snipers in the USMC mod, but they're just an upgrade for raiders, and not supposed to represent a (lone) real sniper, more a small specops team.

A real sniper is a difficult thing IMO. I could see them used in scenarios of a certain scale, but how to depict them best is another question. Probably high ini, high soft att, but what then?

The biggest prob IMO is that they operate mostly hidden, which is their best protection. I once had the idea to put them in the submarine class, but a with land movement. The prob of course is that only some classes in the game can attack sub type units...

[alex0809]

IMO a sniper should be similar to Artillery, but with ow actual damage, medium suppression and a high movement. And it should have a very good ground defense (not much actual damage!) to simulate how hard it is to kill a sniper.

[Radoye]

My $0.02:

It's all a question of scale.

What do the units represent - are they single tanks, single guns, single planes, small 3-4 man fire teams, or rather full divisions, regiments or battalions, artillery batteries, fighter squadrons?

If we work on a small scale, then yes, there is a place for a lone sniper or a Panzerschreck team - just one or two guys laying in ambush and picking off unsuspecting enemies.

But, if we work on a large scale, does this make any sense? Would a single sniper be able to do any noticeable damage to a battalion of men cca 1000 soldiers strong, where killing off a single strength point would mean killing 1/10 of the total number of men? Can a lone sniper indeed kill over 100 men in a single engagement? I don't think so.

Therefore, we need to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

Either bring the scale down to platoon / squad level with the necessary recalculation of hex sizes (instead of some 2 km per hex it would be more suitable to have something like 150 m per hex on such scale), where unit stats including strength points are recalculated to reflect the fact we're dealing with small number of individual men - in this case a sniper unit could be modeled with high attack and defense stats but basic strength of only 1 or 2 points, making it pretty sure they inflict damage every time but can't actually destroy the enemy in one attack, and put it into recon class so they can use phased movement to evade destruction...

...or...

We can try and create a "sniper" ("panzerschreck"/"bazooka", "flamethrower" etc) unit on a large scale, like a whole company of snipers being hidden within ruins of a city they try to defend, 10 basic strength, again high defense stats to simulate camouflage, but very low attack stats - as i said earlier, no sniper would be able to neutralize dozens of targets in a single engagement, so we need to make it sure they do not inflict more than 1 or 2 SP damage.




However, IMO it would be best to integrate such small specialized combat teams into larger infantry units, and buff up the attack stats according to their availability.

[flakfernrohr]

I found this string of sniper characteristics in the mod made by Churchlakecity and mautschi. First I have seen to go with a sniper icon unit in the game.


3323 Scharfschütze 0 212 7 0 4 3 1 3 7 2 0 1 12 14 2 0 0 Ger_Sniper.png 1.1.1940 1.1.1946 3 Scharfschütze close Regular

So, if any of you are interested in employing snipers or sharpshooters, here you go.

[nikivdd]

I'm using a soviet sniper and when entrenched in a town, it can be a very nasty bugger against my infantry.

[Wildthing]

If i rememer rigth, the best way to wipe out the snipers in city-hexes is the attack with a tank. the sniper can nothing do against them. IMO the use of snipers is a good idea in maps with multiple-hex cities, e.g. Berlin, Stalingrad, Moscow. there you can use him in addition to grenadiers and regulars.
As only defender of a city he is cannon fodder. mmmh, but if the attacker has no tank and artillerie support? Damned!

[El_Condoro]

As a sniper unit takes as much 'space' as a regiment or battalion on a map another option could be to use heroes to represent snipers attached to a unit. E.g. The hero might be named 'Sniper' and give the unit a +1 attack. IMO the scale of the average PzC map doesn't work well for snipers, which are much more tactical.

[Shrike]

I like that idea, but it would have to be a rare trait and then maybe it could give infantry units a +1 to range? That way there's an actual reason to get a sniper hero over the existing standard ones. I'd never allow multiple sniper heroes on the same unit though; chances are it will already become too powerful due to the range advantage.

[El_Condoro]

Problem with +1 (or anything) with range is that it then allows snipers to shot _through_ forests, buildings, hills and mountains because the extra range acts like artillery rather than direct fire.

[RobertCL]

In my own mods of PeG (American Civil War, Napoleonic, American war of independence), snipers are definitely arty units.
Si I can only agree with this approach but the attack value should be much lower than any other standard arty unit, so useful for Pz Corps ?

[Konigstiger88]

I realize this discussion is several years old, but an idea I had for snipers is to have them as artillery units that can "switch" to normal infantry units (for those familiar with mods that do this). This represents their ability to function as normal infantry. In artillery mode they would have move of 1 (representing their entrenchment), spot of 1, range of 1, camouflage trait (for amulet mod), high rate of fire, high defense, possibly the ability to ignore entrenchment (like Pioneers) and a very high initiative (representing their ability to pin down enemies). Ideally they would be able to defend urban/rough terrain areas like infantry but be able to counterattack without taking casualties (unlike infantry which on defensive missions can only sit there and wait). This would make them ideally suited for defense, but limited in use on offense.

[Intenso82]

Ou, the sniper, it is interesting. I will think about it
Somebody has an icon with the Soviet sniper?

[flakfernrohr]

@ Intenseo82................Yes there is a Soviet Sniper unit/icon. Maybe more than one. I will see what I can find and post the results on this thread. There are not many so there is no need for a zip file.

[guille1434]

Here is an original Soviet Sniper Team...

Very interesting the different proposed "tweaks" for give a useful (and not very overpowered) place to a sniper unit in this game!

[asuser]

Much better than the well known "still standing man"! These boys act normally in hidden areas... So they need a camo coat or something like a view protection.

[Intenso82]

@ Intenseo82................Yes there is a Soviet Sniper unit/icon. Maybe more than one. I will see what I can find and post the results on this thread. There are not many so there is no need for a zip file.

Ok.

Here is an original Soviet Sniper Team...

Tnx.

I think everything depends on unit - level.

If it is battalion, a company, a platoon level - that it is possible to use the sniper as it will want
In the Western army it is like Scout + Recon range, +camo trait, maybe +GD.

If it is higher level.
And it is for example east front.
That is a defensive unit. Besides switched from ordinary infantry.
That which can attack, without causing return fire, and ignore cover fire of artillery.

2 options.
1. Infantry class, Fire Range =1. SA is lowered, GD is higher.
But he will attack 2 - Kills. Without receiving a loss in reply. It is a lot of.

2. Artilleries class. Fire Range =1. It will be the indirect attack.
2 suppression will be put then. It seems too little

[peterw]

Snipers don't fit very well to Panzer Corps.
Nevertheless I use one in my mod. Basic features:
range=1
size=6
camo flag (like a submarine)
Infantry class

[Konigstiger88]

I believe I read an article about the Germans using large groups of snipers to delay the Soviet crossing of the Oder river for several days. This could justify Snipers as a full strength unit.

[guille1434]

Here is the big unit portrait for the Soviet Sniper unit icon...