measuring range

[deadtorius]

Can't find anything specific listed in the rules but in our last game the Tricky French tried to pull a sneaky on the Austrians that I disagreed with.
The French had a large unit 3 deep in front of a large Austrian battery, right beside it was a unit of Austrian grenadiers that were being horribly bashed by a mix of artillery and light infantry. The grenadiers had been knocked down to wavering in the Austrian turn and had failed to rally. The large French unit wheeled about 1/2 a MU to claim that the Grenadiers were now to their front.
During French shooting the light infantry and artillery hammered away at the grenadiers again for ineffective firing (probably too much smoke) so it looked like the grenadiers were going to survive. The French then measured the distance from their left hand corner of the closest base and claimed the Grenadiers were in 2 MU range and the artillery was still over 2 MU away to the front. They wanted all dice to shoot at close range and skip the guns.

Now almost 90% of that French unit is sitting in front of the guns. If you measure from the center of the unit, the right corner of the front base the distance is over 2 1/2 MU and almost 4 MU by the time you get to the left corner of the right hand base. I argued that just because you have one corner within 2 Mu you can't claim the entire unit at that range, since even that one base was not totally within 2 MU.
In the end the French fired at Medium range splitting their dice between the two targets.
I know you can be at an angle that can put 1 base in close range and the other out at medium range.

So should you measure the range from the center of the unit or does the entire unit have to be within the same range band?

[BrettPT]

I'm afraid the the French were correct.

If the pivot placed some part of the Austrian Grenadiers, even slightly, within 2MU directly in front of any part of the French shooters, then the Austrian Grenadiers become a close range target. If there were no other close range targets for the French, then all the French dice are directed at the Austrian Grenadiers.

It's pretty hard to read the rules any other way in my view....

Cheers
Brett

[Chasseur]

Hi,

1. Shooting comes before movement, so the French needed to shoot before they wheeled. (Perhaps this happened - but it was unclear from your description).

2. The range is always measured to the closest points between units (within their field of fire).

3. Don't forget that when you get the free pivot for Artillery, you cannot change the range to your target, or the range from someone who will be targetting you

Cheers,
John Shaw

[Blathergut]

The move/wheel was in previous French move.

[Chasseur]

Hi Blathergut,

Thought it might have been, but just wanted to clarify it for others. I still have a brain fade every now and then and try moving before firing

Cheers,
John Shaw

[viperofmilan]

One other factor to consider - if the defending unit was in the field of fire of only a single file of the French unit (sounds like this might have been the case from your original description) the the large French unit fires as a smal unit. Would help a little bit.

Kevin

[Blathergut]

It was a large unit two wide and three ranks deep

[viperofmilan]

Ah, then it fired as a small unit anyway.

Kevin

[deadtorius]

does seem very odd that you only have to wiggle one corner into range to count an entire unit at that range, not sure what the original intention was but doesn't make much sense to me, however that does appear what the rules state. perhaps a definition of what straight ahead means might have been more helpful in this case. guess you have to watch those little wiggle moves from the sneaky froggies

[Jason_Langlois]

Can anyone point me to where it defines "seeing" a unit? I'm having trouble finding where line of sight is defined. I know range is from any part of the unit to any part of the target, but how do you determine if you can see the target (for fire or assaults), and when you lose dice due to partially obscured targets?

[Blathergut]

does seem very odd that you only have to wiggle one corner into range to count an entire unit at that range, not sure what the original intention was but doesn't make much sense to me, however that does appear what the rules state. perhaps a definition of what straight ahead means might have been more helpful in this case. guess you have to watch those little wiggle moves from the sneaky froggies

1. It probably forces players to keep units lined up instead of staggered. Once that starts to happen the enemy can focus fire on one unit, esp. at close range.

2. At some point you have to be able to define when a unit can effectively fire at a unit and when it can't. I guess stating "in front" is as good a point as any. The physical bases restrict us in how a unit might actually position and fire. Could it be coming off the side of the unit to its front left?

[deadtorius]

Lets try a picture
F= French large unit 3 deep
AA=Austrian Artillery large unit
ag= Austrian Grenadiers large unit 2 deep


FF
FF
FF


AAAAagagag
agagag

This is more or less how it started off, we were all parallel to each other. The grenadiers were about 5mm ahead of the guns.
Not shown are the French artillery and light infantry that were beside the French infantry and directly in front of the grenadiers. The Austrian artillery was anchored beside a building on their left and was 3 guns. Part of the problem is that my figs were based for the old WRG rules and the artillery bases are about 45 or 50mm wide, makes for narrower arty units otherwise the grenadiers would have been further to the right. One of these days they will all be getting replaced with 28mm figs.

The French wheeled about a half MU, so that they could trace a line from their left to the grenadiers. If you extend the left of the French unit then the side of the grenadiers was just inside that line. Extend a line from the French right and you get almost the entire Austrian battery in front of them. After the wheel the French left and Austrian left corners were just within 2MU.

What does not make any logical sense is that over 90% of the French are outside of close range. 99% of the Austrian Grenadiers are outside close range nor even directly in front of the French. Almost 100% of the Austrian artillery is still directly to the front of the French, and yet you are saying that in this situation the French can shoot the entire line at close range only at the grenadiers. Perhaps now you can see why it does not make any sense in this case.

If the French had wheeled more so that their entire front could have covered the grenadiers then it would make more sense, but then both Austrian units would have been in close range and the dice wold have to be split.

So do you still think it should have been an exclusive close range shot?

[Jason_Langlois]

Don't the French still have to split their dice? They just have to put maximum dice on the close target, before assigning dice to the medium range target (pg 51). Also, would they be able to trace a line from both front corners to the grenadiers (it's not clear if their final position might have led to one corner being blocked by the other base of the unit)? If not, they'd fire as 1 cohesion lower, right?

[BrettPT]

I can see how it can feel strange firing at close range if:
1 figure in the unit is at close range but every other figure is medium range (or out of arc).

However it's one of those compromises for the sake of simplicity. Otherwise you have to write a rule that covers exactly how much of a unit needs to be in arc/at close range for all (or some %) of the unit to fire. Then you have to try and measure this clearly and without much room for debate on the table.

My preference is to go with simplicity. Shooting is done by unit (rather than by base, or part of unit) and the unit is either in, or it is out, of arc/range. They have mitigated the effect a little with the 'big unit with only one base in arc shoots as small' rule.

I don't have much of a problem with this one.

Cheers
Brett

[Blathergut]

Don't the French still have to split their dice? They just have to put maximum dice on the close target, before assigning dice to the medium range target (pg 51). Also, would they be able to trace a line from both front corners to the grenadiers (it's not clear if their final position might have led to one corner being blocked by the other base of the unit)? If not, they'd fire as 1 cohesion lower, right?

-artillery was more than 2MU away from my right corner so didn't require dice
-as is, we screwed up too...reduced French dice for enemy cavalry near but I was shooting at close
-yes, both corners could draw to the grenadiers

I think the point about simplifying shooting is right.

I would think this a tactic people would use. Have 3 units side by side with a MU or less between them so the left and right unit can wheel just a tad to bring all fire on the enemy unit in front of the centre.

[deadtorius]

Sounds like a legal cheat that makes no sense at all when you look at it from a logical point of view. Perhaps I can convince Blathergut to see logic over utter ridiculousness as we don't play tournaments.

[Blathergut]

What would make sense then for a unit being able to measure close range?

Both corners of one base?
Centre of unit?
Both left and right corners of unit?

[deadtorius]

after pondering this situation the only solution that is simple that I can think of is that you would measure from where two of the firing units bases meet, 1/2 of a small unit or any 1/3 of a large unit, to any part of an enemy base to your front. At least this way you have to have a fair part of your firing unit in front of your target.

What do you think?

[BrettPT]

after pondering this situation the only solution that is simple that I can think of is that you would measure from where two of the firing units bases meet, 1/2 of a small unit or any 1/3 of a large unit, to any part of an enemy base to your front. At least this way you have to have a fair part of your firing unit in front of your target.

What do you think?

This could happen:

xxxx xxxx
xxxx xxxx
...yyyy
...yyyy

xxxx
xxxx are 2 small units that move up to 2.1 MU of small enemy unit enemy y. Each x unit then pivots very slightly at the end of their move so that the centre point of each x becomes exactly 2MU from y. Both x units fire at close range.

However ... measuring from the centre of y, it is very slightly over 2MU to either x unit. So y fires back at medium range.

Y feels cheated ...

Cheers
Brett

[deadtorius]

Any less cheated than being shot at by 100% of your enemy that is only 1% to your front and 99% out of arc and range??
Think we will give it a shot with the other measure and see how it works.