Are we modders really that fragmented?

[rezaf]

Rudankort raised this point recently in the 1.06 thread.
He claimed every one of us essentially wants different stuff to be included in the next update, because that's what he needs the most for his campaigns.
I never noticed that, but maybe I just didn't look hard enough.

My impression so far had been, many people - some of them are long gone by now - posted in the threads specifically asking for suggestions or covering a topic where suggesting improvements seemed to be a good idea (like the Scenario Editor thread, for example). And then, essentially, time went by and people realized that they can post their wishes til kingdom come, none of them were going to be addressed, so people just stopped posting. The threads fell from page one, or - in the case of stickies - activity in them just died down (other than the occasional newcomer who wasn't aware these threads were basically just decoration).
I wonder, what's the impression of you other modders?

We're not that many, don't at least some of you agree that we should be able to come up with a list of stuff that we consider very important, and other stuff that'd be kinda nice, but not really essential? Do we really have THAT many outrageous requests standing in the room?

My personal pet-wish was/is that more stuff that's already in the game, but hardcoded, be made moddable. For example, make a tag that we can give to any unit which will make it have the same movement mode as a scout. Make a tag that will make a ranged attack do actual damage like that of the battleship. Stuff like that.

What are your guys wishes? Can't we come to an agreement somehow?

If you're a modder, please let's hear what you have to say.
Thanks in advance!
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rezaf

[MickMannock]

Thinking about this and Rudankort's post in 1.06 thread, I guess I'm not a modder and rather a scenario designer (and not a fancy one either ). So personally I don't have that much requests that needs to be fullfilled for me to be happy.

But looking at what others post I get the impression that people envision things that PzC wasn't going to be from the beginning. Rudankort adressed that briefly. I see people wanting this game to turn into a more hardcore wargame. The problem is, it was never intended to be that, and I don't think it would be wise trying to push the game into that niche. Partly because there are so many other great games out there in that department already and partly because this game already excels in it's own niche (beer and pretzels wargaming).

So first of all I think there needs to be consensus of what this game truly is and in what direction it should be heading. And after that, you could talk about a wish list of sorts.

[VPaulus]

I just do cosmetic mods. So I can't speak of the editor.
I would like mod support within the game, a mod manager, maybe something like BA.
I would also like a fix for the gaming crashing above 1GB. That indeed limits a lot the cosmetic mods.
I know a workaround (using alias cloning animations) will probably be release with 1.06, but that might not be enough, specially if we want to add brand new animations and adapt the cosmetic mods to the bigger maps which can consume more memory.

[rezaf]

That's a fair point Mick, but I've only seen this come up recently.
Like I wrote, I don't think much should be changed in the core game at all (and I'm sure most of these things cannot be done in the engine with reasonable effort anyway).
My stance is: The game stays exactly like it is, but opens up more of the stuff it can already do to modders.
When everything is encapsulated, there's still room to think how to go on from there.
But I'm curious what the other modders will say - hopefully some will post here.

Edit: VPaulus, you're not a modder, you're a modERATOR, so get the hell outta here. (Just kidding, of course, glad you posted your point of view.)
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rezaf

[flakfernrohr]

My personal pet-wish was/is that more stuff that's already in the game, but hardcoded, be made moddable. For example, make a tag that we can give to any unit which will make it have the same movement mode as a scout. Make a tag that will make a ranged attack do actual damage like that of the battleship. Stuff like that.
_____
rezaf

I agree about the hard coded stuff even though I am not sharp enough to know how to unravel some of it. This is coming from a pseudo-modder, me. I am not on the level of most of you. I also agree that there should be a "click" key or command to go to the important mods and put them into "play" in the game. The developers could manage this I would think and not make it so intimidating to others (non modders) who are afraid of implementing a mod. They can use the mod and feel safe without screwing up their "mothership", the game itself on their computer. The basic game remains as the developers wish, but with improvements and mods as add ons.

In the time that I have been frequenting the Scenario Design section, the ONLY fragmented member was usually a teacher from Germany. All the rest of us worked together without envy, ego or animosity. I don't think we are fragmented because we don't get on one another's turf. And if one does get a bit on another's turf, it is usually accidental or certainly permission is asked prior to doing so. Also we all do different aspects of modifications. There is mutual respect at all levels, from one icon being made to major campaigns.

[deducter]

I think for some modders, there's a certain vision of what this game should be. For me, I looked at the DLCs, and I thought, "the maps are great, but the units and combat don't feel quite right," so I went ahead and implemented my own vision of how the units should be. It is designed to appeal to players who want a greater challenge, or to be rewarded for playing with a more historical core, or both. Admittedly I don't get too much feedback, but even if I did, I would not try to please everyone. I only want to design the stats so that those who share a similar vision agree with me. Those who dislike that Tigers cost 1300ish prestige or that upgrading units out of family will incur a prestige penalty probably won't enjoy my mod, but I'm okay with that.

So I guess my point is that it is important to lay out what exactly it is that you want your mod/game to be, and then work towards that goal. Do not try to please everyone, because you'll end up pleasing no one.

[bebro]

Personally, I don't feel that fragmented, hehe.

But lame jokes aside I think it is absolutely normal that people asking for specific stuff *they* need to have for their mods. But still I think there's enough many or most modders can agree on, like having easier mod handling, or having the scn editor not wiping out manual changes to overlays or so.

Other things have have also surfaced several times, brought up by several people, like being able to mod movement types. Or having less generic transports with different roles (towing heavy, light, or troop carrier-only etc.)

I also like to be able to assign more freely some of the hardcoded functionality that is already available in the game, but so far tied to a unit class (or whatever else the limitation is), and I think others would do so as well (unless hordes of modders come in and post they'd hate it to prove me wrong).

[nikivdd]

Rudankort raised this point recently in the 1.06 thread.
He claimed every one of us essentially wants different stuff to be included in the next update, because that's what he needs the most for his campaigns.
I never noticed that, but maybe I just didn't look hard enough.

I was always in favor of a smarter AI and i wrote that several times

My impression so far had been, many people - some of them are long gone by now - posted in the threads specifically asking for suggestions or covering a topic where suggesting improvements seemed to be a good idea (like the Scenario Editor thread, for example). And then, essentially, time went by and people realized that they can post their wishes til kingdom come, none of them were going to be addressed, so people just stopped posting. The threads fell from page one, or - in the case of stickies - activity in them just died down (other than the occasional newcomer who wasn't aware these threads were basically just decoration).
I wonder, what's the impression of you other modders?

People come and go. I do have the impression that some people just gave up, perhaps disappointed that improvements didn't come or too little. I have always been convinced what minor changes happened to the vanilla game have been in function of the DLC's and nothing more. The only exception i can think of is the v1.05b version that re-reads the efile between scenario's and that it is a handy feature even for DLC development.

We're not that many, don't at least some of you agree that we should be able to come up with a list of stuff that we consider very important, and other stuff that'd be kinda nice, but not really essential? Do we really have THAT many outrageous requests standing in the room?

I don't believe so, as long we don't step over the frontier what PC stands. A plain fun easy-moddable turn based strategy game without diplomacy/economics or micro-management in general and 50 buttons you hardly use at all.

My personal pet-wish was/is that more stuff that's already in the game, but hardcoded, be made moddable. For example, make a tag that we can give to any unit which will make it have the same movement mode as a scout. Make a tag that will make a ranged attack do actual damage like that of the battleship. Stuff like that.

Yes that would be nice. I'm in favor of the possibility to manipulate the efile directly from the editor and give units special attributes or altered parameters for one scenario or a whole campaign.

What are your guys wishes? Can't we come to an agreement somehow?

Like i said, a better AI and some more features in the editor. I think "they" hardly bother to read the (sticky) threads.

If you're a modder, please let's hear what you have to say.
Thanks in advance!

I gladly did and now to answer the question of your post. I believe the answer is yes and no. No, and i also speak for myself, because i have the honour to know most of you, we interact, we share and help eachother.
Yes, because there are too many (single person) projects going on, which take considerably longer to complete or are abandonned before completion. I am convinced that if we would actually work together on something as " a band of brothers" with several unit modders, scenario designers, sound modder (;)), efile,... we could make a hell of an add-on.

[flakfernrohr]

Deductor, I haven't given you feedback, but I was tinkering around with the same thing ONLY FOR MYSELF when I first discovered Mr. Garnett's Equipment Editor and got so frustrated with Bagration. What you did was a reall brain killer for me to deal with ALL of the units and balance things out from a broad perspective. That's hard for lots of us to do.

But YES, I like your mod. I think it is an important one also. It changes the basic criteria of the game which is a key element in modding. And of course if a person doesn't like your mod as it stands, they can either not use it or the can modify their own units to please themselves. You just made it easy for a person to plug in a finished change to the units. Such mods are important and welcome in my opinion.

[deducter]

Deductor, I haven't given you feedback, but I was tinkering around with the same thing ONLY FOR MYSELF when I first discovered Mr. Garnett's Equipment Editor and got so frustrated with Bagration. What you did was a reall brain killer for me to deal with ALL of the units and balance things out from a broad perspective. That's hard for lots of us to do.

I'm glad you see that my mod is meant to be played with all the changes, from a broad perspective. Remove any one of the components and things won't feel quite right to me. That said, you are free to change what you want, but I do not support or vouch for the playability/challenge of the game if you do so.

[flakfernrohr]

Deductor, I haven't given you feedback, but I was tinkering around with the same thing ONLY FOR MYSELF when I first discovered Mr. Garnett's Equipment Editor and got so frustrated with Bagration. What you did was a reall brain killer for me to deal with ALL of the units and balance things out from a broad perspective. That's hard for lots of us to do.

I'm glad you see that my mod is meant to be played with all the changes, from a broad perspective. Remove any one of the components and things won't feel quite right to me. That said, you are free to change what you want, but I do not support or vouch for the playability/challenge of the game if you do so.

Of course you cannot support or vouch for it if anything is changed. Perfectly understandable. But my point was what you did was save a lot of work for a person who wants to play the game differently. You did it from the broad and complete perspective of ALL considerations which is akin to balancing an egg on the tip of your nose. Quite an accomplishment that everyone should appreciate and try to realize. Just my $.02.

[nikivdd]

Deductor, I haven't given you feedback, but I was tinkering around with the same thing ONLY FOR MYSELF when I first discovered Mr. Garnett's Equipment Editor and got so frustrated with Bagration. What you did was a reall brain killer for me to deal with ALL of the units and balance things out from a broad perspective. That's hard for lots of us to do.

I'm glad you see that my mod is meant to be played with all the changes, from a broad perspective. Remove any one of the components and things won't feel quite right to me. That said, you are free to change what you want, but I do not support or vouch for the playability/challenge of the game if you do so.

Of course you cannot support or vouch for it if anything is changed. Perfectly understandable. But my point was what you did was save a lot of work for a person who wants to play the game differently. You did it from the broad and complete perspective of ALL considerations which is akin to balancing an egg on the tip of your nose. Quite an accomplishment that everyone should appreciate and try to realize. Just my $.02.

Exactly. I'm sure with Deducter's efiles for the GTPG campaign that hardly anyone will end up with a core full of Pz Tiger II tanks in 1945 and thus make it far more challenging.

[deducter]

Exactly. I'm sure with Deducter's efiles for the GTPG campaign that hardly anyone will end up with a core full of Pz Tiger II tanks in 1945 and thus make it far more challenging.

Any attempts to use my efiles for the GTPG is not recommended. The main thing to keep in mind is that there are files for different years. I'd also have to see your maps. That said, when I have time, I can get around to checking our your campaign and making some suggestions.

[VPaulus]

This is off-topic.
May I remove these last posts to Deducter thread?

[airbornemongo101]

I actually thought we,as a (in this subforum) community got along pretty well. There is alot of inte-raction and amongst us .People share their work and supprt each other.

I only wished for one little thing and evidently it's to much work for the devs.

Even tho I didn't personally ask for any changes to the game other than a list of new units I've seen the same questions asked time and time again form different people regarding modding and the game itself. I've also seen smoke get blown up people's asses for almost a year by the way of "we're looking into it",maybe in the future",etc....ad naseum

I personally don't care what the devs say. I don't think they really want to support modding.

The below clearly states my position:

IMHO they (Lordz=Rudankort an Zimoa) are only paying lip service to modding. I personally think they don't like it.

I think Slitherine is behind modding,but they are not the developers Lordz is. Slitherine is just the publisher.

I've tried to be nice to Lordz. I really don't know if they are for or against improvements and or modding. They pay lip service to improvements and modding,but "where's the beef"

Like I said above I think they don't like it and I personally wish they would just come out and say-No the game is our creation and we have a specific vision for the path of our creation,if you mod it your on your own. I would respect that a helluva alot more than the continual "we'll see","we're working on it","maybe in the future". Look at the AI thread. Rezaf pointed out Rudankort has even made a post in weeks

Maybe I spent many too years as a prison guard,but I can smell bullshit (even when its written down) and I have a very,very low bullshit tolerance.

I was going to adopt a wait and see attitude,but the latest posts from Rudankort just really,really pissed me off.

F#ck all of this bullsh#t ,I'm done. I'm going back to be one of the huddled masses that just play the game,after I put it on the shelf for a little while. This whole drama has kinda put a damper on it (PZC) for me.

Those of you who have my email,please stay in touch. Those of you who helped me when I was learning thank you.

Nico if I hit any bugs w/ SS-GTPG I will fix them and send you the fixes.

Vaya Con Dios mi' amigos

[rezaf]

You can't be serious mongo, that was the last thing I was trying to accomplish. Are you seriously pulling a HBalck now?
It'd be very sad to see you gone.
Even if you were right (and I don't see the situation quite as grim), there's still a lot that can be done even without developer support.

If you insist on leaving, I'd humbly request that you PM me your email so maybe we could stay in touch.
But seriously, please don't go. Or, just take a break for a little while, maybe a week or two. Whatever suits your fancy.
_____
rezaf

[Chris10]

I really wonder why stirring up so much trouble ?
Why just not sit back and see whats there to come with AK ?...
It doesnt really matter if the developer or publisher is up to modding or not..the game itself is quite moddable the way it is and even in an easy way...they could have packed everything in a database file with a weird file extension and just to unpack the stuff before modding would have cost a lot of work and a progrmmer to write an unpacker...

Whats this all about ?...There is huge smoke around and only a tiny little fire so I really would like to see everybody to relax and continue with his stuff...this is about the fun,isnt it?...
So what?

Creative Assembly has long given up on games like Rome Total War and Medival 2 Total War yet still awesome mods are coming out with thousands and thousands of people active in the forums on totalwarcenter.com and these games are not that easy to mod like PzC and very skilled poeple had to write unpackers,converters and other tools in the first place to be able to mod these games anyway...while CA was and keeps promising tools and editors which never get released,so what ?....so stop the whining,pls

MOD SUPPORT IS A VOLUNTARY SERVICE AND STARTING RANTS BECAUSE A DEVELOPER DOESNT FULLFILL THE WISHES OF MODDERS IS RIDICOLOUS AND ONLY LEADS TO EVEN LESS SUPPORT CAUSE THEY GET PISSED OFF:::SO WHY NOT THINK TWICE BEFORE TAKING OUT THE CLUB ??? :::

........but I can smell bullshit (even when its written down) and I have a very,very low bullshit tolerance.[/i][/b]

...you have a good nose do you?

F#ck all of this bullsh#t ,I'm done. I'm going back to be one of the huddled masses that just play the game,after I put it on the shelf for a little while.
Vaya Con Dios mi' amigos

hey YOU... I too have a good nose and right now...I have this specific smell in my nose... ...so cmon...nothing is eaten as hot as it has been cooked

[MickMannock]

This whole drama has kinda put a damper on it (PZC) for me.

But it's you creating, or stirring up, the drama. Calm down instead. Don't turn into HBalck and I think you are being a bit unfair towards the developers.

I'm starting to get unsure of what the problem really is. What does people want? What is truly lacking?

There should be a list.

[VPaulus]

I think you're overreacting, Bob.
In fact I know more people who think exactly like you're thinking right now. But I don't share this vision.
One thing you've to understand, a developer must have always a vision, otherwise you end-up running the risk of not having a game, but only a mismatch of ideas but not a true game.
This happens everywhere, when there's creativity involved. Of course sometimes you've to open the door, and let new ideas come. But the vision must not be spoiled, it's the skeleton of the game.
So naturally they are stubborn, sometimes too much stubborn, I agree.
"TheLordz" are responsible mostly for the visual and sound parts of PzC while "Flashback Games" are responsible for the game core. So probably you're blaming more "Flashback Games" (Rudankort) than TheLordz for not being too open.
From my private conversations with Alex, I can assure you, he wants to support modding and opened the door always if I needed something I could speak with him.
So I'm sure he isn't totally def to the community, as you're implying with what you understood from his post.
You're a valuable member of this community, and a community his always more that just the sum of its individuals.
So I ask you, please reconsider your position.

[dks]

not a modder PzC here YET. that does not make me not included in this discussion. what makes me included is that I payed for this game of PzC too just like the rest of you/us and found I liked the game after many years of waiting for someone something somewhere to finally bring me/us a game similar to PG. not only did PzC fill that bill it gave me more of what I wanted in PG/PG2 to have. not only that, PzC gave me a chance to mod again with todays OS's and the reality I could do those moddings without a hex editor and way easier than it was trying to mod PG!

some advice from a soon to be modder and tweaker of PzC, cool your jets people. remember you wouldn't even be posting here if PzC didn't exist. think positive and lead. show other want to be modders that there is good reasons to mod PzC and yes it is a game worth our time to invest in.

ya see, we are reading with interest your post and ideas and chewing hard on what is being said...........

all you guys workings are of interest. keep up the good and hard work. it will and is appreciated..........