Buildings!!!!

[AndyClaxton]

Okay, I had a game at club on Friday night with 3 others and we had a whole host of problems with the rules regarding buildings so I have a few questions to ask which are:

1. If you have a unit that is already "Occupying" a building* do you need to pass a CMT to change to "Defending" the building*?
2. If you are "Occupying" a building* and take hits from artillery and fail the CMT to advance, can you still change from "Occupying" to "Defending" or would that count as an advance?
3. When "Defending" a building*, if you get an outcome of retire do you retire and if so where do you measure the retire distance from? (I know that you don't retire when in combat until you are routed.)
4. When "Occupying" a building* you can be shot at by artillery but what can you shoot at?
5. If an enemy unit is "Occupying" a building* it can be forced out by artillery fire forcing it to retire but how else can you force it out? (Can it be assaulted? If it can't be seen to be shot how can it be assaulted? Also, only one unit is allowed in a building*!)
6. In the rules it defines "Buildings*" as being small sized terrain pieces, I assume that this actually means a normal sized terrain piece?

* By building I mean a terrain piece that represents a building or buildings.

We all felt that we could make certain assumptions about the answer to each question but we'd really like clarification on each point please.

Andy

[donm]

One extra question to add to Andy's list

When do Conscripts within a building count as in a defensive position, if at all?

thanks

Don

[SirGarnet]

1. If you have a unit that is already "Occupying" a building* do you need to pass a CMT to change to "Defending" the building*?

No, the CMT is on entering (p76-77) the building or getting out of Defending posture.

2. If you are "Occupying" a building* and take hits from artillery and fail the CMT to advance, can you still change from "Occupying" to "Defending" or would that count as an advance?

Yes you can. You don't "advance" as defined in the Glossary p104, which says some part of the unit must end further forward.The building rules for defending also say the actual position of the units in the building is ignored for all purposes so there can be no advance. Digging in would be a natural response for an occupying unit that can't advance out.

3. When "Defending" a building*, if you get an outcome of retire do you retire and if so where do you measure the retire distance from? (I know that you don't retire when in combat until you are routed.)

The rule is broader than that - the defenders must be broken to leave based on an outcome. (p77 bottom right)

Troops leaving are supposed to be in Tactical with rear edge touching the building, so I conclude you must rout move from there.

4. When "Occupying" a building* you can be shot at by artillery but what can you shoot at?

Not sure. Only artillery can fire at troops occupying buildings. Buildings block visibility and Occupants treat the building as rough terrain, {Correction:} and Cover when shot per p77 and as Cover is defined in the Glossary. My guess is that buildings block mutual shooting (at least to any effective level) involving occupiers and thus limit attackers to assault (without Defensive Fire) - makes it sounds like streetfighting.

5. If an enemy unit is "Occupying" a building* it can be forced out by artillery fire forcing it to retire but how else can you force it out? (Can it be assaulted? If it can't be seen to be shot how can it be assaulted? Also, only one unit is allowed in a building*!)

See (4) for why I think it can be assaulted.

6. In the rules it defines "Buildings*" as being small sized terrain pieces, I assume that this actually means a normal sized terrain piece?

Yes.

[deadtorius]

4. When "Occupying" a building* you can be shot at by artillery but what can you shoot at?

You can't shoot if occupying, and can only be shot at by artillery.

When do Conscripts within a building count as in a defensive position, if at all?

Units occupying a building are in cover but not defending an obstacle. Basically this means that if your troops get charged by cavalry while occupying a building the cav do not get the + POA for charging foot in open. There are no POA's against foot.
If you want to count as being in a defensive position then you want to defend the building. It allows you to shoot out 4 dice per attacking enemy unit and everyone needs 5's to hit. Troops in a building have not flank or rear regardless of formation, so no matter which direction you are being assaulted from you are always facing the enemy with your front.

[SirGarnet]

When a small built up area was lost to assault, the best tactic to retake it was a prompt counterattack before the attackers could consolidate their position and prepare a defense. This seems to be covered well by the FoGN dynamic - if the defenders are routed out, one assaulting unit occupies the building but can't change to defend it until its own next turn. This gives the original defender's side their next turn to have one or more other units ready to launch an immediate counter-attack and tumble the original attackers back out again before they can ready themselves for defense. This means buildings could change hands several times in a battle, like the village of Plancenoit at Waterloo, for example.

Since the actual position of a unit inside is ignored, it looks like occupants can be assaulted if the edge of the BUA is in range. If assaulted from multiple directions, it looks like the attackers simply total their damage, each treated as a frontal attack, while the defending occupant simply gets normal dice allocated along its 360 degree "front" against assaults from various directions.

[donm]

AndyClaxton wrote:
2. If you are "Occupying" a building* and take hits from artillery and fail the CMT to advance, can you still change from "Occupying" to "Defending" or would that count as an advance?

Yes you can. You don't "advance" as defined in the Glossary p104, which says some part of the unit must end further forward.The building rules for defending also say the actual position of the units in the building is ignored for all purposes so there can be no advance. Digging in would be a natural response for an occupying unit that can't advance out.

If this is true why does it say on page 77, 1st column, second paragraph 'or March Column to 'defending' without a CMT, taking their full movement allowance to do so. To show that a unit is defending buildings its bases should be placed in a single rank around the perimeter.' So the figures are moving and getting closer to the enemy. Sounds like an advance to me.

AndyClaxton wrote:
3. When "Defending" a building*, if you get an outcome of retire do you retire and if so where do you measure the retire distance from? (I know that you don't retire when in combat until you are routed.)
The rule is broader than that - the defenders must be broken to leave based on an outcome. (p77 bottom right)

This line that you quote about must be broken is on page 77 under the heading 'General rules for combat against buildings' so only covers the combat phase of the move. If you turn the page over there is no mention of this under the heading 'Firing to or from buildings.' So it does not apply.

AndyClaxton wrote:
4. When "Occupying" a building* you can be shot at by artillery but what can you shoot at?

Not sure. Only artillery can fire at troops occupying buildings. Buildings block visibility and Occupants treat the building as rough terrain, {Correction:} and Cover when shot per p77 and as Cover is defined in the Glossary. My guess is that buildings block mutual shooting (at least to any effective level) involving occupiers and thus limit attackers to assault (without Defensive Fire) - makes it sounds like streetfighting.

I am confused here. If you can't see each other to shoot, how is it that you can assault / be assaulted. I am not sure that you can assault a unit just occupying. There is only a section under buildings about assaulting defended buildings, no mention of what you do against occupied buildings.

Under buildings on page 97 second para it states 'Buildings block line of sight, although they can be seen to be occupied or defended from any distance', so I don't understand why you cannot shoot.

Hopefully Terry will come to our rescue.

Don

[donm]

Units occupying a building are in cover but not defending an obstacle. Basically this means that if your troops get charged by cavalry while occupying a building the cav do not get the + POA for charging foot in open. There are no POA's against foot.

What worries me about this situation, is that the infantry have to take a CMT for not being in square while charged by cavalry and square is not an allowed formation while in buildings. Doesn't sound right to me.

Don

[SirGarnet]

Yes you can. You don't "advance" as defined in the Glossary p104, which says some part of the unit must end further forward.The building rules for defending also say the actual position of the units in the building is ignored for all purposes so there can be no advance. Digging in would be a natural response for an occupying unit that can't advance out.

If this is true why does it say on page 77, 1st column, second paragraph 'or March Column to 'defending' without a CMT, taking their full movement allowance to do so. To show that a unit is defending buildings its bases should be placed in a single rank around the perimeter.' So the figures are moving and getting closer to the enemy. Sounds like an advance to me.

They are positioned to show whether they are in occupying or defending posture, but the the rules say their actual physical position is ignored.

3. Yes on 3.

AndyClaxton wrote:
4. When "Occupying" a building* you can be shot at by artillery but what can you shoot at?

I am confused here. If you can't see each other to shoot, how is it that you can assault / be assaulted. I am not sure that you can assault a unit just occupying. There is only a section under buildings about assaulting defended buildings, no mention of what you do against occupied buildings. Under buildings on page 97 second para it states 'Buildings block line of sight, although they can be seen to be occupied or defended from any distance', so I don't understand why you cannot shoot.

Hopefully Terry will come to our rescue.

Don

I'm quite sure you can assault troops occupying buildings. The alternative is a cannonade to force them out, which is permitted.

I'm not certain how you represent it on the table, but since the "position is ignored" inside the town and only one unit can occupy the building, it must be that you contact the exterior of the building area to assault.

If troops occupying the interior of the village and troops outside engaged in small arms fire against each other there would be a lot of holes in the buildings between them but not enough casualties to matter. The troops need to be out on the perimeter for a useful exchange.

Infantry in a BUA is not in the open being chanrged by cavalry so does not take that test.

My question for Terry or Mike is how (and if) cavalry assault troops occupying buildings (they are not allowed to assault defended buildings).

[BrettPT]

1. Cavalry cannot assault Defended buildings, but can assault Occupied buildings if they are in march column along a road.

2. Infantry Occupying a Building do not have to take a CT for being charged (unless they are wavering) as they are not in the open (see last bullet point, left hand column, page 30.)

3. The infantry will get defensive fire - 3 dice (rough terrain) needing 4+ (cover but shooting a march column) In defensive fire you can target the assaulting unit at the point of contact - so no visability issues IMO.

4. If the Cavalry close, the infantry will get 3 dice (all other troops - 1st bullet point on table, less 1 dice for being in rough), the cavalry will get 4 dice (all other troops but no deduction for cavalry march column in rough). The infantry will need a 4+ to hit, the cavalry a 5+ (in marh column).

5. If the Infantry are broken they are not destroyed - Cavalry only destroy broken infantry in the open.

6. For Infantry Occupying a building, they may be forced to retire if they do not hurt the Cavalry more than they get hurt themselves (only Defending Infantry get the 'no retreat unless broken' rule).

7. There is no pursuit against opponents leaving a building, although assaulting Infantry can occupy it (page 60) - so the Cavalry do not pursue.

8. Cavalry may pass through the occupying Infantry if still in contact at the end of close combat. I assume that the Cavalry are placed with their rear edge on the far side of the building and then make heir pass through move from there.

In practice, Cavalry charging a building will be very rare - there will need to be a suitable road to assault along. The Infantry can prevent this by simply Defending the buidings (rather than Occupying them) as Cavalry cannot assault Defended buildings.

Maybe not ideal rules, but I don't think the rules need amending as it will virtually never happen - and it is in the control of the Infantry to prevent (by Defending rather than Occupying).

I recall in 1814 that French Young Guard cavalry did (impetuously) successfully assault a town, can't remember the battle. As Occupying troops are likely to largely be on the streets rather than in the buildings, so I see no reason why cavalry should not be able to charge down those streets at them.

Cheers
Brett

[Blathergut]

1. Cavalry Assaulting Buildings (Occupied): Not sure where the question is here. Infantry occupying buildings are in cover, not open, so no need for cohesion test when assaulted by cavalry. (p. 77: "In rough terrain for cohesion purposes") The cavalry can only assault into the buildings along a road and when it is in march column (p. 28). The infantry would be 6 dice (small unit) vs. 4 dice (other). The following would be applied as fits the situation: rear support, shock cav vs infantry (see p. 77), cohesion losses, march column. Cavalry may not assault defended buildings. Units occupying cannot fire and can only be targeted by artillery. You can assault an occupied buildings because you can see that they are occupied.

(As to why units occupying cannot shoot, that would be an author comment.)

[Blathergut]

Great minds thinking/posting same?

[Blathergut]

"If this is true why does it say on page 77, 1st column, second paragraph 'or March Column to 'defending' without a CMT, taking their full movement allowance to do so. To show that a unit is defending buildings its bases should be placed in a single rank around the perimeter.' So the figures are moving and getting closer to the enemy. Sounds like an advance to me."

It is not an advance. Occupying means occupying the entire buildings area. The bases are moved into various positions (photo p.76) to show whether the unit in the area is occupying or defending the entire area.

[Blathergut]

Clarification Needed:

Does the "units defending a building only retire if broken" apply only to the combat phase or more generally to the unit at all times?

[donm]

Gentlemen,

1. but can assault Occupied buildings if they are in march column along a road.

The line says ' It is not in March Column unless assaulting across a bridge, or its move is entirely along a road and it is assaulting into buildings.'

I read this as, this is the only time it can charge in March Column, it does not say you cannot charge in tactical or line.

3. The infantry will get defensive fire - 3 dice (rough terrain) needing 4+ (cover but shooting a march column) In defensive fire you can target the assaulting unit at the point of contact - so no visability issues IMO.

It clearly states under the buildings section that only troops defending buildings can fire, troops only occupying cannot.

Anyway I don't think using cavalry to take buildings is helping clear up the qusetions Andy started this thread with, so perhpas Terry would like to clear this all up for us.

Don

[Blathergut]

But cavalry can only move into buildings in march column. Assaulting would apply as well.

[deadtorius]

when occupying buildings you are out in the streets so there are likely some troops visible on the edge of the building.

Troops occupying can not shoot since buildings block line of sight, only artillery and rockets can fire at them. I assume this is shelling the area as opposed to aiming and firing at specific targets, only some of the troops are visible to your troops so minor skirmishing not being represented by dice rolls.

Defending a building you are in the buildings shooting out of loopholes and windows etc. Thats why cav can't attack you, horses are not good at charging through doors and gates

I don't think you need to enter to assault troops who are occupying or defending buildings, you just need to make it to the edge of the terrain piece and you are now in contact.

No actual movement occurs when changing from occupying to defending, you move the figures to their new positions so that both players can tell if the troops are occupying or defending.

[BrettPT]

Clarification Needed:

Does the "units defending a building only retire if broken" apply only to the combat phase or more generally to the unit at all times?

Nice spot - it doesn't appear to. However I believe that Terry is looking at this in the errata & FAQs which are likely to include some clarification around buildings.

Cheers
Brett

[SirGarnet]

If it applied only in combat it should say something more, such as "retire from combat".

How likely is it in that period that troops defending buldings who are not willing to be dislodged if Wavering from assault be dislodged by Wavering from fire?

[donm]

Mike,

If it applied only in combat it should say something more, such as "retire from combat".

As it is under the 'General rules for combat against defending buildings' section and no other, I don't understand why you think it would apply anywhere else???

If the rule writers meant it to apply to shooting it would be in the 'Firing to or from buildings' section on the next page, or a general note under out come moves in the shooting section.

Don

[SirGarnet]

As a matter of drafting, it should be written that way to make it unambiguously applicable solely to combat in the briefest way, particularly considering how other rules are written and located and the need at times for players to look at the logic of the situation.