How to deal with the Allied intervention in Norway?

[Cybvep]

I noticed a certain tendency - whenever the Allies intervene in Norway and successfully manage to land troops there, the Axis player is in for a long, hard struggle. Since in most games conquest of Norway happens before or during fall/winter of 1940, this means that even simply WALKING to Bergen takes a long time. Obviously the Allies will have to pay in PPs and MPs for their intervention, but the schedule for Barbarossa is rather tight. Also, if the Axis is not preparing for the Sea Lion, the Allies don't really have any other front to worry about. As we know, the Battle of Britain doesn't happen in most games and in the majority of cases there is no North African Front, either (simply because the Axis cannot afford it in this game without delaying Barbarossa and the final price is not that great, because the conquest of Suez alone won't have any dramatic consequences for the Allies). Therefore, in a typical CEAW game the Allies don't have much to do after the fall of France and before Barbarossa and they can easily afford to intervene in Norway in force knowing that it will cost the Axis much more than them, even if they are eventually repulsed from the country.

So, how to deal with the Allied intervention in Norway? Any helpful tips?

[rkr1958]

I noticed a certain tendency - whenever the Allies intervene in Norway and successfully manage to land troops there, the Axis player is in for a long, hard struggle. Since in most games conquest of Norway happens before or during fall/winter of 1940, this means that even simply WALKING to Bergen takes a long time. Obviously the Allies will have to pay in PPs and MPs for their intervention, but the schedule for Barbarossa is rather tight. Also, if the Axis is not preparing for the Sea Lion, the Allies don't really have any other front to worry about. As we know, the Battle of Britain doesn't happen in most games and in the majority of cases there is no North African Front, either (simply because the Axis cannot afford it in this game without delaying Barbarossa and the final price is not that great, because the conquest of Suez alone won't have any dramatic consequences for the Allies). Therefore, in a typical CEAW game the Allies don't have much to do after the fall of France and before Barbarossa and they can easily afford to intervene in Norway in force knowing that it will cost the Axis much more than them, even if they are eventually repulsed from the country.

So, how to deal with the Allied intervention in Norway? Any helpful tips?

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[Cybvep]

Obviously I assume that there was no blitz, because it's not always possible to do it successfully.

[rkr1958]

Obviously I assume that there was no blitz, because it's not always possible to do it successfully.

I'm not really following you.
But; as my article pointed out there's a 4 to 5% that you won't be able to execute this Blitz in 1939 because of weather. If you're looking for a 100% chance of success in Norway; then I'd suggest not invading. In any military operation there's some element of risk. You have to assess if the payoff is worth the risk and effort given the knowledge (or lack thereof) of your opponent's playing style. In the actual war, Norway was a risky operation too.

[Cybvep]

So basically you are saying that I should do it in 1939 or not invade at all?

[rkr1958]

So basically you are saying that I should do it in 1939 or not invade at all?

No, I'm not saying that. Whenever you decide (if you decide) to invade there's always an element of risk and pain involved. Weather permitting you can often dispatch Norway with this plan before the allied player has a chance to respond. If the allied player is expecting this move then they can being responding on turn 1. However; that response is based on an expectation. So now you open the possibly that you move like you're gong to do a '39 Scandinavian Blitz; but it's a feint to draw out and trap the RN. You have to mix it up to keep your opponents guessing.

The other option is to invade after the fall of France. In that case I would consider landing a corps near Bergen and using 1 or 2 sub groups to block the allies from reinforcing there.

Regardless of when you invade; I'd suggest using the entire Luftwaffe, surface and sub fleets to support the invasion. The best way to deal with the British if they intervene is by attacking and sinking, or heavily damaging, their transports.

As I stated in my first response is that there's a element of risk and pain in which ever way you decided to attack Norway. The only way to completely eliminate the pain and risk is not to invade.

[Kragdob]

So, how to deal with the Allied intervention in Norway? Any helpful tips?

Even if you don't plan to do a Sealion you can pretend to do that by placing your units near port and placing your navy in e.g. Cherbourg and Antwerp. And if you see Allies sent something significant to Scandinavia you can turn your faint into a real thing.

The real problem starts when you launch a Barbarossa. Then Allied Player knows for sure that he is safe and have the whole 1941 to play with you. It's a no-brainer especially that there is usually no real challenge in NA at the moment.

This is why I think that if you invade Norway you are giving a nice present for the Allies.

[rkr1958]

This is why I think that if you invade Norway you are giving a nice present for the Allies.

I disagree. The best way to stop the allies from intervening in Norway is to stop them from getting there. I'm a fan of the '39 Scandinavian Blitz. It's worked every time for me in my last 6 games as the axis. In three of the those six games the allied player tried to intervene. In one game I sunk 2 of his 3 transports and damaged an RN DD. In another sunk one transport and in the third knocked 5-steps off is transport. I would have sunk it but I choose poorly for moving my subs. In only 1 of those 6 games the allied player managed to land one garrison (in Bergen), which will be dealt with by the 2 infantry corps that I used to invade Norway. I was hitting the garrison with German air; but have pulled it back to support the Case Yellow which will begin in 1 to 3 turns (dependent on weather).

Whenever you decide to invade (i.e., '39 or post fall of France), you need to support the operation with the full strength of the Luftwaffe, Kreigsmarines and German u-boat fleet. As the axis player you need to be patient and determined that no UK intervention into Norway will stand. For goodness sake, if the Germans can invade England and capture it then they surely can counter a British intervention into Norway with much less effort; but still able to inflict significant losses on the RN and RAF.

The importance of Norway, in my opinion, is as a base of operation for interdicting the Murmansk convoy. 3 bombers supported by 2 or 3 fighters covering the KM and 3 or 4 u-boat flotillas can stop the Murmansk convoy cold and / or inflict heavy losses on any allied navies that try to escort it through the axis air umbrella. Norway is important to the axis on the Eastern Front.

[Cybvep]

Even if you don't plan to do a Sealion you can pretend to do that by placing your units near port and placing your navy in e.g. Cherbourg and Antwerp. And if you see Allies sent something significant to Scandinavia you can turn your faint into a real thing.

The real problem starts when you launch a Barbarossa. Then Allied Player knows for sure that he is safe and have the whole 1941 to play with you. It's a no-brainer especially that there is usually no real challenge in NA at the moment.

I will try it, thanks. I also agree with your assessment, although Norway is juicy and the Germans need the additional income in 1941-1942!

For goodness sake, if the Germans can invade England and capture it then they surely can counter a British intervention into Norway with much less effort; but still able to inflict significant losses on the RN and RAF.

Sure, but in games when you invade England you expect high losses and in most cases you go for 1942 Barbarossa. The Axis player needs to avoid high losses, esp. before Barbarossa.

The importance of Norway, in my opinion, is as a base of operation for interdicting the Murmansk convoy. 3 bombers supported by 2 or 3 fighters covering the KM and 3 or 4 u-boat flotillas can stop the Murmansk convoy cold and / or inflict heavy losses on any allied navies that try to escort it through the axis air umbrella. Norway is important to the axis on the Eastern Front.

That's 5-6 air units. How can you spare so many for Norway if you are going for 1941 Barbarossa? During winter air units are severly debuffed and during spring and summer you need them in other places.

[rkr1958]

That's 5-6 air units. How can you spare so many for Norway if you are going for 1941 Barbarossa? During winter air units are severly debuffed and during spring and summer you need them in other places.

I usually don't have those in place until late 1942 after US entry and after the '42 fighting season in Russia is over. (Before then, 3 to 4 German u-boat flotillas usually can do a decent job.) The bombers are from the Russian front and the 2 to 3 additional fighters are new builds and part of my strategic reserve. That is, they can be quickly moved to France or Italy, along with the bombers if necessary, if the allies threaten a early invasion.

[Kragdob]

That's 5-6 air units. How can you spare so many for Norway if you are going for 1941 Barbarossa? During winter air units are severly debuffed and during spring and summer you need them in other places.

I usually don't have those in place until late 1942 after US entry and after the '42 fighting season in Russia is over. (Before then, 3 to 4 German u-boat flotillas usually can do a decent job.) The bombers are from the Russian front and the 2 to 3 additional fighters are new builds and part of my strategic reserve. That is, they can be quickly moved to France or Italy, along with the bombers if necessary, if the allies threaten a early invasion.

I consider your strategy highly ineffective. Yes you can damage UK if Allied Player is impatient, but if he is you have hard choices in 1941.
You either divert resources from Barbarossa (the most important ones - the air) or let the Allies retake for free. Using your subs to defend? Even better - you will not be hunting my convoys. Allied Player cannot think of better situation to have with the resources that would wait for Overload at least one more year.

Later on having Norway gives you free interdiction of Swedish Iron, base for bombing Berlin right away your bombers are ready and a base for northern amphibious operations. A very nice gift.

[rkr1958]

That's 5-6 air units. How can you spare so many for Norway if you are going for 1941 Barbarossa? During winter air units are severly debuffed and during spring and summer you need them in other places.

I usually don't have those in place until late 1942 after US entry and after the '42 fighting season in Russia is over. (Before then, 3 to 4 German u-boat flotillas usually can do a decent job.) The bombers are from the Russian front and the 2 to 3 additional fighters are new builds and part of my strategic reserve. That is, they can be quickly moved to France or Italy, along with the bombers if necessary, if the allies threaten a early invasion.

I consider your strategy highly ineffective. Yes you can damage UK if Allied Player is impatient, but if he is you have hard choices in 1941.
You either divert resources from Barbarossa (the most important ones - the air) or let the Allies retake for free. Using your subs to defend? Even better - you will not be hunting my convoys. Allied Player cannot think of better situation to have with the resources that would wait for Overload at least one more year.

Later on having Norway gives you free interdiction of Swedish Iron, base for bombing Berlin right away your bombers are ready and a base for northern amphibious operations. A very nice gift.

Well, I don't know what to tell you. As the axis in over 25+ games I've have always successfully taken Norway. Each to their own. That's what makes GS very good in my opinion.

[Kragdob]

Taking it is not a problem. Keeping it past 1941 may be, depending how you occupy UK. Since most Players does not engage in NA much Norway is a very lucrative option.

[rkr1958]

Since most Players does not engage in NA much Norway is a very lucrative option.

Lucrative target for the allies? Maybe in the axis player put more emphasis on holding North Africa and keeping Italy in the game then this would detract from the attractiveness of Norway.

[Cybvep]

Most players hold Africa until 1941/1942. This is not the problem. The problem is that in most cases there is no point in attacking in NA in 1941, let alone in 1940, so after the fall of France the Allies don't really have to worry about the Axis actions in NA and don't have any active theatres.

[rkr1958]

Most players hold Africa until 1941/1942. This is not the problem. The problem is that in most cases there is no point in attacking in NA in 1941, let alone in 1940, so after the fall of France the Allies don't really have to worry about the Axis actions in NA and don't have any active theatres.

Personally, I'd love for the Brits to try for Norway in 1940-1941. My u-boats would have a field day. And, since Italian and axis minor fighters are more than enough to handle Russian fighters in 1941; then this would free up 4 to 5 German fighter units to support these u-boats in addition to 2 BB and 1 DD units.

[Plaid]

I dont think that Scandinavian Blitz succes rate is 94-95% , its more like manufacturer's advertisement . When I play against good players, they tends to load british garrisons on very 1st turn and park them near Norway ports, so the turn when you land they also land. This strategy became mainstream and experienced people are constantly ready for this.

After allies control ports they can bring in corps units or anything else they want and hold there at least until summer, keeping large german force busy.

[richardsd]

I dont think that Scandinavian Blitz succes rate is 94-95% , its more like manufacturer's advertisement . When I play against good players, they tends to load british garrisons on very 1st turn and park them near Norway ports, so the turn when you land they also land. This strategy became mainstream and experienced people are constantly ready for this.

After allies control ports they can bring in corps units or anything else they want and hold there at least until summer, keeping large german force busy.

which is what the Axis subs are for - sinking unescorted transports

[Plaid]

But allies have more then enough navy to escort them.

[Cybvep]

The biggest drawback of the Allied intervention in 1939 is the penalty for repairing units coming from low British MP at the start. If the Allied player accept it, then they will probably be very aggressive with their navy and the Germans can bog down.