Messerschmitt fighters.

[4kEY]

Does anyone else think that these become disproportionately worthless as the game goes on? As much as they were used in real life, there is little reason to use them in the game besides historical accuracy. I'm wondering what might be a realistic stat boost, maybe a new eqp entry that comes out later in the war, making the earlier ones unavailable.

I mean, they weren't really that worthless, were they? I know the allies had some good fighters (I just came accross a new Russian fighter in '44 that gave my Ta 152 incentive to not even attack.

I generally play a defensive air game anyway, but I'd like to be able to go on the offensive sometimes and not take 50% casualties. I know that deducter made the Me109s a little more comparable to the FWs in his mod, and I'm still working my way up to playing it (I'm going through the GC one more time with enemy units general exp setting increased by 200-300 points).

What might be a realistic stat boost so that the FW does not completely outlcass the Messerschmitt?

[huertgenwald]

You're talking about the Bf 109, right ?
We'll it WAS outdated during the later years of the war. Was pretty slow, too (400 km/h).

[ivanov]

The Bf 109's and Fw 190's are pretty well modelled in the Deducter's equipment mode.

[deducter]

I buff the Bf 109 with some small bonuses and reduce the price in 1943 and again in 1944. The main problem is that the FW 190 is too good relative to the Bf 109 in the vanilla game. So the FW 190 is nerfed a bit and more expensive, but again prices come down slightly in 1943 and significantly in 1944. However, the FW 190 is a very good plane still, and the stats reflect this.

I also implemented a expupgrade penalty, which is the most crucial parameter. So if you do upgrade that Bf 109, it will cost you about 2.5 stars, which is much worse than any stat gain.

And the Bf 109 may have been "outdated," but it was a good fighter in the hands of a capable pilot. Many of the best pilots flew the BF 109 exclusively. Hartmann for instance, the greatest ace of all times with 352 kills, flew the Bf 109.

The main problem with the Luftwaffe by 1944 was that it ran out of good pilots. Almost all of their experienced crew were killed in France, then England, and finally Russia (Kuban, Kursk, etc.). I think the Luftwaffe actually had more fighters in 1944 than 1943, but without good pilots, the fighters were crushed by the USAF. If you try to p[lay 1944 with only green fighters, you'll find that the Russians will slaughter you completely. The only way you even stand a chance is to have veteran fighters, and a veteran Bf 109 is very good relative to a green FW 190. You also can't use them aggressively anymore in 1944.

[bt2steam]

Yeah the real reason the Me's were so dominate early on was they were fuel injected as the hurricane's and spitfires(early models) were on carbuerators hence giving the Me's a better fighting capabilities at higher altitudes.the me109s were realtively massed produced and lethal for bombers with little or no escorts it kinda sucks the germans lost alot of experienced pilots early on. they could have gone on to the FW's.

[4kEY]

My Dad told me about that ace that flew Me109 exclusively. I put in a new unit based on him, with increased stats for incentive to use after the FW is released. The thing is, these new figher skins bebro made are beautiful, and I want to start using the different Messerschmitt variants. Will the Russian airforce slaughter a minimum 3-star vanilla-stat Bf109 if I play a defensive game?

Note, I think the Messerschmitt unit I've been using is Churchy's. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember for sure where I got it.

Thanks for the comments, folks. There's still much of WW2 weaponry I know little about.

[deducter]

I used a vanilla Bf 109G during GC44 beta testing just fine. It was not slaughtered horribly, but it had a hard time killing things.

[Chris10]

You're talking about the Bf 109, right ?
We'll it WAS outdated during the later years of the war. Was pretty slow, too (400 km/h).

And the Bf 109 may have been "outdated,"

I see there is a bit of misconception around here...
Lets see some facts then

Me-109 B (very early version > Spanish Civil War) 470 km/h
Me-109 E 570 Km/h
Me-109 F 670 Km/h
Me-109 G6 650 Km/h

Comparing the last version Bf-109K with the late war version of other fighters the Me-109 was everything but outclassed.
The rate of climb of the Me-109 K4 greatly surpassed those of all other allied fighters in service by that time, including the rate of climb of the Spitfire MK XIV and Hawker Tempest MK V and vastly the climb rate of the P-51 D Mustang not even mentioning the flying russian metal cans Yak-3,Yak-7,Yak-9 or La-7 which were up to 150km/h slower than the Me-109K with top speeds ranging from 560 km/h to 680 km/h and with terrible climb rates

The Me-109K top speed of 715 km/h was not surpassed by any allied fighter and only equaled by the
Spitfie MK XIV whose top speed was 717 km/h , P-51-D 703 Km/h, P-47D 686 km/h, Hawker Tempest MK-V 696 km/h...
The top speed of the test version K-6 was 725 km/h !
The climb rate of the Me-109K was 1670m/min...go and check all other allied fighters
So the Me-109 was not outclassed nor outdated in any way when speaking about piston engined fighters...the opposite was the case and more lethal versions were on the way although its clear that with the K series the end of the Me-109 evolution was reached and the german Air Command was looking for alternatives which were the Tah-152 even though it was commonly accepted that the age of piston engined fighters was coming to an end but jet engines were not available in the needed numbers.

The versions up to K-14 did not enter production cause the war ended before but the K-14 would carry
3 × 30-mm-MK-108-Machine Cannons who would deliver a "Hulky" punch like the Me-262 and would have downed any fighter with a single volley...
the secret weapons of the Luftwaffe...

on the other hand the Bf-109 G6 to G-10 were already awesome evolution levels of the G series very well capable to stand its ground against any late war allied fighter
G10 > 685 Km/h top spped in 7400 m

btw..
Have a look at the list of flying aces in WWII for an awe moment... ...no matter what plane the germans flew...they were deadlier than Mambas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wo ... lying_aces


.

[deducter]

I am admittedly not too familiar with detailed knowledge on various fighter craft, however, I did use the quotations marks to indicated that I know they weren't actually outdated. The Bf 109G was by far the most common variant, and it was a fine machine, able to stand up to any allied fighter. The Bf 109K was delivered in the fall of 1944 and was too late to make any meaningful impact. The FW 190 was better at low altitudes, and it has better weapons and was more versatile (many fighter/bomber variants). I tried to incorporate all these features into my mod, while keeping in mind game balance, so that each fighter has some value. The Bf 109 are cheap, reliable, and as the player you'll probably have 3-4 veteran ones in 1943 and probably 1944. The FW 190 need to be trained up in late 1942 and 1943, but are better if you can achieve the same level of experience, which is not trivial to do. And the Me 262 is badass, but it is incredibly expensive and a green one may not perform as well as you think against the experienced Russian planes, so it might be best to upgrade a 4 star fighter to a 1.5 star Me 262 and try to get it up to 2-3 stars.

I also wouldn't trash all the Russian planes as "flying metal cans." There's a lot of disdain for many Russian equipment which I find annoying. The Yak-3, the Yak-9U, and the La-7 are a match for ANY Bf 109 or FW 190. In my mod, I probably buffed them a bit too much, mostly because the AI needs help with their planes to make them suitably dangerous for the player.

The main problem by 1944 again wasn't the technical aspects of the German planes, it was their lack of trained pilots, of fuel, and of the swarms of Allied planes flying nonstop everywhere, giving the Germans no time to rebuild and regroup.

[Chris10]

The main problem by 1944 again wasn't the technical aspects of the German planes, it was their lack of trained pilots, of fuel, and of the swarms of Allied planes flying nonstop everywhere, giving the Germans no time to rebuild and regroup.

This

[4kEY]

The 9U...that was the bastard.


As I understand it, the problem with the Me163 and 262's lack of trained pilots were worse than for other planes, due the nature of early jet fighters.

[Chris10]

As I understand it, the problem with the Me163 and 262's lack of trained pilots were worse than for other planes, due the nature of early jet fighters.

Me-262 were usually not given to greenhorns and newbies (except towards the very very end...) but very experienced fighter squadrons got upgraded like the JG 54 Grünherz, Commando Nowotny or JGDVB 44 (Gallands Experts)....what was left of good pilots got a Me-262 under his ass if the plane was available

[airbornemongo101]

Huertgenwald was in the German Luftwaffe during the 80's.

I would like to hear more from you Huertgenwald,on this subject

[huertgenwald]

Since i wasn't a pilot (meagre ground personnel ) there's really not that much to tell ...

[airbornemongo101]

I figured you might have a little insight

[huertgenwald]

Maybe, but only about F 104 Starfighters.

[ivanov]

Maybe, but only about F 104 Starfighters.

That was a funny plane. I wonder why the pragmatic Germans, were one of the few, who hoose such an impractical aircraft for their air force? Maybe the politics was to blame?

[Chris10]

Maybe, but only about F 104 Starfighters. :P

aha..Knall-Bumm-Elo oder Schrott und Schrauben bei den Erdnägeln und Sargfightern...Spezialflugzeuge für Aussen -Einpunktlandungen

That was a funny plane. I wonder why the pragmatic Germans, were one of the few, who hoose such an impractical aircraft for their air force? Maybe the politics was to blame?

Corruption

[huertgenwald]

Why impractical planes ?
The german pilots were very fond of them !

The real problem, AFAIK, was that F 104s were originally designed as highspeed air superiority fighters, but were misused by german defence politicians as (dive) bombers,
very much like the Me 262 in WW II.

Due to the virtually "nox-existent" wings of the F 104 that was a complete desaster, hence the huge amount of crashes.

[ivanov]

But there were a lot of accidents with F-104's involved, not only in Germany. Also, the whole concept of the high-speed interceptor of poor maneuverability, relying mostly on the air to air missiles was flawed. The Mig-19's, not to mention Mig-21's were much more reliable and robust and the India-Pakistan war of 1971 proved it. That kind of fighters like F-104 were a failed branch of the fighter jet evolution. The most successful jet of that era - the F-4 Phantom- was much more universal and apt to the modifications. That's why the Luftwaffe is operating the Phantoms to this day and the times of the F-104 are long gone.