big brigades vs small brigades

[bahdahbum]

Hy I still did not get the opportunity to test the rules but one question to the players who got more experience, is it better to have 3 units 4 bases strongh or 2 units 6 bases strongh . I know the big brigades have some advantages but is it really worth it ?

I am rebasing a lot of old miniatures and especially my russian army . In 1812 the average brigade strengh was more around 4 bases ...everything depending also of when in the campaign

[BrettPT]

Ummm. toough question.

Big units are much better - ignoring the first hit often leaves them fresh from medium range fire when a small unit would become disordered.
Having fewer big units also makes command control and recovery easier. one CP can 'move' or recover 6 bases rather than 4.

However, often you just need a unit to do something, it doesn't matter so much how big it is. Numbers of formations is important and a mostly large unit army can find itself short of formations. And, of course, large units are 50% more points than small ones.

My perferences?
For cavalry: Small - need to be able to wheel easily and fit in gaps
For light infantry: Small - main benefit of LI is the 5 medium range dice you shoot with. Making a unit large only adds 1 dice to this for +50% points.
For reformed infantry: (mostly) Small - go for mobility and numbers
For unreformed infantry: Large - unreformed need to brave enemy fire and get close, need the ignore first hit rule.
For guards: Small - too expensive otherwise.
For Militia: Small if you intended as 2nd line rear supports, or to garrison towns etc, Large if you expect them to fight in the front line.
For artillery: Large (probably) - makes them scary for enemy to charge.

Cheers
Brett

[Blathergut]

We did our second game with the rules today. I ran 1812 French with two infantry divisions and one cavalry division. All six infantry regiments were 6paks, 5 of them average conscripts. It was a very formidable force. For an extra 2pts over a 4pak average drilled unit, a 6pak of conscripts 3 bases deep is just about as good as the 4pak but more often than not that -1 to hits made a difference.

The better grade troops are just too expensive to use in large units. They'd be nice, for sure, but horribly expensive. The French veteran Light infantry come in at almost 3 times the price of the Austrian conscripts. That's 3 of his units against one of mine!!

[BrettPT]

For an extra 2pts over a 4pak average drilled unit, a 6pak of conscripts 3 bases deep is just about as good as the 4pak

It may be worth noting that 3 deep bases do not give conscripts an extra die for cohesion tests.

The rule on page 70 is "Conscripts gain an extra dice if they have another unit giving them rear support, or are in a defensive position." [underline added].

That aside, I agree. Big units of conscripts are a good idea.

Cheers
Brett

[Blathergut]

Hmmmm...

But does that mean it can only be another unit?

or

Does it mean 'rear support' and like some other places in the rules it's not always matching in meaning?

Everywhere else in the rules "rear support" seems to mean a unit behind or 3 rank deep tactical.

[BrettPT]

The rule on page 70 looks clear to me. The words "another unit" mean another unit. While self-supported will give conscripts rear support in hand-to-hand, you need a separate unit to get the extra CT dice.

Two large units of conscripts in 2 deep tactical, with a 3rd small unit behind giving rear support to both (for both combat and CT tests), seems a good way to deploy a conscript division.

Cheers
Brett

[Blathergut]

k..thanks for clarifying...we're getting there...bit by bit!!

[panda2]

I think I'd have to agree with Brett here.

Rear support is only relevant in two instances, combat and CTs for conscripts. In the section of combat (pp56-57) the rules expressely state that the combat bonus' of rear support can be provided by another unit or from being in deep tactical (self-supported) formation. In the section on CTs (p.70)only rear support from other units is mentioned.

I'd have to conclude that in the rules as currently written therefore that conscripts in deep tactical formation don't get a benefit on their CTs (even though I'm currently using an Austrian Army with 4 large units of average conscripts!).

Andy D

[KendallB]

Bums on seats, laddie, bums on seats!

The more units you have, the better the firepower you can project and the number of supports you get. Also the attack/counterattack exchange is better if you have more units. Remember Wellington said that winning a battle is down to reserves and he always had more reserves than the opponent.

However Brett points out some excellent points which I too have come to the same conclusions after the Easter tournament.

It really depends on your opponent, the other cav and artillery units in your army and if you like to play defensively or offensively.

[hazelbark]

I find 6s pretty advangaeous. Caveats on elites of of course. I think the big difference in my mind is deploying them wide not deep. The reduced hits adds up to a significant advantage.

Haven't used them for mounted yet, but home too.

The weakness i just noted saturday was if too many units in 6s you deploy your army before the other side and that could really matter.

[deadtorius]

Of course keeping some kind of historical organization in mind, I would guess 4's would be more common then 6's. Looking at some Austrian OOB's I would deploy some of the divisions with 6 strong units and others look like 4 would make more sense. Seems the larger units would be in infantry only divisions for the Austrians anyway.

[bahdahbum]

I would guess 4's would be more common then 6's

I agree, but there is always the competitive mind and the historical minded player

[hazelbark]

I would guess 4's would be more common then 6's

I agree, but there is always the competitive mind and the historical minded player

It also depends on where you want to break the definiation of a brigade in a historical OB.

[bahdahbum]

A 1812 russian brigade being +/- 1600 people ..it is a 4 base brigade

[Astronomican]

A 1812 russian brigade being +/- 1600 people ..it is a 4 base brigade

For the start of the 1812 campaign, the Russian infantry regiments were virtually up to full strength, numbering some 1000+, with some reaching 1200+! This was done by calling up men to the 2nd (depot) battalion, and sending the best of the depot battalion to the 1st and 3rd (field) battalions. Thus the quantity and quality of the field regiments was maintained and made ready to face the invaders.

Given that a Russian 1812 infantry division usually comprised of 3 brigades (2 Line and 1 Jager), with each brigade comprising 2 regiments of 2 battalions each, this gives anywhere from 2000-2400 men in a brigade - definately in the 6-base large unit category.


Jimi

[hazelbark]

Yea it really depends on when you look at roster.
a russian 1812 brigade is technically 2 regiments each of 2 battalions each of "official" muster of 600.
So that is 2,400 or one large unit.
However by say September of that year MANY were down to nearly 50% of that so yes one small unit is probably battlefield stength.

But compare that to say the 1809 campaign. I am working up some potential OBs. I am seeing LOTs of larger potential formations if you want especially in the early phase. By summer after a few months campaigning you see lots more small.

At Aspern-Essling consider Saint Hilaire's division. It had fought under Davout in the april phase and now served under Lannes.

Brigade cmder Marion
10th Legere 2,069

Brug Lorencez
3rd Ligne 1,854
57th Ligne 1,548

Brig Destabenrath
72 Ligne 1,665
105th Ligne 1,463

1 battery of 6 8lbs +2 Howitzer
1 horse battery of 5 6lbs+2 4lbers

Now I would probably just make that 5 small units which is pretty close to rule. I might make 10th legere large just because it was one of the better units in the army.

Now compare to Morand's division before Wagram
Brig Lacour 6,297
13th legere, 17th Ligne, 30th ligne

Brig l"huillier 1,1978
61st ligne
rest detached

Now Lacour could be 3 small or 2 large, but if you list the 3 regiments separately then you may be able to claim 3 large. But even 3 small vs 2 large.

I guess at the end of the day we all will make our own calls.

[Astronomican]

Fudging has to come into it sometimes, but as long as its an 'honest' fudge then its fine.

For my Peninsular 1811 British army, I've fudged the Guards in the 1st Division into a large unit - they had 1943 effectives, close enough to 2000 for an 'honest' fudge.

However, if someone tried to fudge 1500 men into a large unit, I'd raise a Spock eyebrow or three.


Jimi

[bahdahbum]

this gives anywhere from 2000-2400 men in a brigade - definately in the 6-base large unit category.

Yes, theoretical strenght which was never reached....and after some campaigning it would drop dramaticaly ...more around 1600 with, of course some exceptions

[shadowdragon]

Fudging has to come into it sometimes, but as long as its an 'honest' fudge then its fine.

For my Peninsular 1811 British army, I've fudged the Guards in the 1st Division into a large unit - they had 1943 effectives, close enough to 2000 for an 'honest' fudge.

However, if someone tried to fudge 1500 men into a large unit, I'd raise a Spock eyebrow or three.


Jimi

Indeed some fudging is required. You have to be really careful about developing a FoG orbat from regimental strengths. There's a danger of bias since often one army's regimental strengths can tend to be at the lower end of the range (say 1200-1400) while the other army's are at the higher end (say 1800-1900). If you represent all regiments with small units the second army will be vastly under represented. I think it's good advice in the book to start with the brigade strength as suggested.

Example - an infantry Corps of 3 divisions each of 2 brigades, each of 2 regiments. Corps 1 has regiments are 1200, Corps 2 has regiments of 1800, Corps 3 has regiments of 2200 and Corps 4 has regiments of 3000. So, total corps strengths are 14400, 21600, 26400 and 36000. If you start at the regimental level you end up with 12 small units for cases 1 and 2 (or 48 infantry bases per corps) and 12 large units for cases 3 and 4 (or 72 bases per corps). Even though Corps 2 and 3 are nearly equal in strength Corps 2 would have little chance of beating Corps 3 since it's outnumber in bases by 50%.

If you start with the suggestion in the book, the brigade strengths (and suggested units) are 2400 (1 large unit), 3600 (2 small units), 4400 (1 large and 1 small unit) and 6000 (2 large units) for a total of 36, 48, 60 and 72 bases respectively.

I also like to check at the higher echelon levels to make sure that the divisions and corps base strengths are close to some average across these formations in both armies.

[terrys]

Now compare to Morand's division before Wagram
Brig Lacour 6,297
13th legere, 17th Ligne, 30th ligne

Now Lacour could be 3 small or 2 large, but if you list the 3 regiments separately then you may be able to claim 3 large. But even 3 small vs 2 large.

The way I normally work it out is:
At 440 men per stand (8 x 55)
Brig Lacour would provide you with 14.3 stands.
This would provide 2 small units and 1 large unit.