Be nice to the dutch-belgian 1815 army

[bahdahbum]

Hy,

I read somewhere in one of the subject that someone played a dutch-belgian army which was mainly "poor" and "conscript" .While some units where undoubtly "green", many soldier's had fought for France in 1813-1814 and were far from being "newbies" . 2 corps commander ( Chassé and Collaert) and all 3 cavalry commanders had fought on the french side for years and , contrary to the legend, did not negociate with the french ennemy . Dutch-Belgian units fought with courage . You should remember that at Quatre-Bras, it was the Dutch-Belgians that did stop Ney untill enough reinforcements could help . Nassau was under Dutch-Belgian command . The 5th dutch militia regiment lost 50% of it's strengh and did fight again at Waterloo . The 7th line unit stood it's ground and was publicly complimented by Wellington . The 8th belgian Husssars lost up to 65% of it's original strengh and still continued to fight . General Trip, commended by Wellignton, was in charge of the dutch-belgian heavy brigade that counter charged the french cavalry . 4th Dutch light Dragoons 38 % loss and fought all day long, 5th Belgian light dragoons 36 % loss at Waterloo . heavily engaged at Quatre Bras and , after having lost 171 men there, where engaged at Waterloo and lost another 157 men . it is that unit that the french tried to entice coming to join them .

I do not say that the Dutch-Belgian should all be superior veteran , but that they should not be underestimated . There will be conscripts, poor units but also some drileld average .

By the way, one forgotten historical fact is that if the british guard brigade did face the french middle guard ( not the old guard that did never charge the british contrary to the legend) it is Detmer's brigade ( mostly militia ) that did charge the 1/3 Grenadier à Pied with shako on the bayonnets and they did repulse them

[Greenjacket]

I have no idea what the list designers are thinking. And while there are some examples of Dutch-Belgian units fighting well, there are also examples of units not fighting so well!
For me the issue is unit cohesion. This is not a matter of individual courage. Ardant duPicq noted how "Four brave men who do not know each other will not dare attack a lion. Four less brave, but knowing each other, will attack resolutely". In other words, soldiers who have gone through experiences together have built up a sense of comradeship, trust and shared sacrifice which is fundamental to unit cohesion. As Napoleon stated, "Soldiers have to eat soup together for a long time before they are ready to fight." So it is not a matter of courage, bahdahbum - whether a unit will hang together in the stress of combat is a matter of unit cohesion, and at Waterloo Dutch-Belgian units hadn't been together for a long time. A new untested unit will not hold together under the stress of battle as well as a veteran unit.

[bahdahbum]

Unit cohesion : yur point is very interesting as it was the same for the british, the prussians and the french ! many where green units even the scott greys

[MikeHorah]

I wouldn't get too worried, as allies in the Anglo Netherlands army of Waterloo we have a range of Ave drilled ave Conscript and poor conscript among the infantry and in the cavalry Ave drilled and some poor drilled.

The thing to remember however in terms of training is that these were newly raised formations asuch and even experienced troops especially the officers take a while to learn how to work together in larger brigade level formations when newly created .

As the Dutch Belgian Reserve Corps ( which mainly did investments after Watreloo) we have a fair amount of average drilled available albeit the militia are still poor conscript.

[bahdahbum]

Fair is fair . The 3 armies had to cope with the same problems . new brigades, new units, new divisions, new corps ..

And by the way , yes I am belgian

[david53]

Fair is fair . The 3 armies had to cope with the same problems . new brigades, new units, new divisions, new corps ..

And by the way , yes I am belgian

With access to good reference on the Dutch-Belgium army no doubt, the only references I have are the two osprey books not sure how good they are.

Could you suggest a good book on the Dutch-Belgium army of that period.

Dave

[bahdahbum]

The latest osprey is good . The illustrator lives near Waterloo ( by the way the battle never took place at Waterloo but Braine L'alleud ) .

I will have to check for other books but I fear they will be in french or dutch . But The Waterloo compagnion book by Mark Adkin is pretty good and in english. Some of the info comes from the local museums .

[david53]

If there a good German book that would be okey as well.

Any chance you can make Britcon this year?

Dave

[Philip]

I used the Netherlands army in the competition. About half the army was Average Drilled, and the rest was Average or Poor Conscript. All the Dutch-Belgian cavalry were Average Drilled.

I don't know for sure what the final published army list will have (perhaps some Poor options for cavalry), but I'm sure we will be able to put together a viable army from it.

The large number of conscripts were useful for defending the LOC, defending buildings, providing supports, and increasing the ACV. If all you have are conscripts, it will be hard to press an attack, but combined with better troops they are quite useful.

The Dutch and Belgian carabiniers were able to dominate cavalry fights simply because there were two small units of them. Some of my opponents had only one heavy cavalry unit, and although often of better quality than my Av Drilled the numbers were usually decisive.

Philip

[deadtorius]

by the way the battle never took place at Waterloo but Braine L'alleud ) .

Wellington spent the night before the battle at Waterloo. For some reason that was never explained he decided to name the battle Waterloo. It was suggested after the battle that it be called the battle of the Belle Alliance, which unless I have forgotten was the name of an inn at the cross roads behind the French lines. Wellington turned down the suggestion and stuck with his first choice. Seeing as it was a multi national victory it had seemed a better choice and I think the Prussians were slightly miffed that they seemed to not be getting much credit for saving the day.
Alas the victors decide and Wellington is still considered the victor and I do agree it was only won by the arrival of the Prussians. Guess its too late now to start an online petition isn't it?

[KendallB]

Wellington is supposed to have chosen Waterloo as the name because it was easier to say in English than La Belle Alliance or Mont St Jean. Looking at how the Brits mangled the Spanish battle names, I can see his point.

[deadtorius]

thanks for pointing that one out, guess the author I had read never heard that version of the story. Wonder how bad it would have been mangled in German???

[bahdahbum]

Any chance you can make Britcon this year?

No I will be in southern France for holidays . I am allowed to go to britcon every 2 years . In 2014 I will go to the worlds in Germany

British : from my sources, they call it the battle of Waterloo for the simple reason that Wellington wrote his victory dispatch from his headquarter at Waterloo . So as the dispatch was sent from Waterloo, it was called in the newspapers the Battle of Waterloo . And do try , as an englishman, to pronounce "Braine L'alleud" or" Mont St Jean" . Waterloo is easier

French : The french call it the battle of Mont St Jean or the center place of the french Line

German : even now to thel it is the Battle of la Belle Alliance, the HQ of Napoleon near Plancenoit

[Greenjacket]

Unit cohesion : yur point is very interesting as it was the same for the british, the prussians and the french ! many where green units even the scott greys

It varied a lot with the British.

There were some fairly green British battalions (i.e. 3/14th, who were nicknamed "the peasants" because a number of them were young with only a few years service), and before Waterloo Wellington had wanted to send his "new" battalions home (political reasons - notably the already embarrassingly small size of the British army - meant the new battalions stayed in the Low Countries). Still, they were trained regular troops - probably the same in quality to Dutch-Belgian regular units. Wellington made sure to keep the new battalions well to the rear and they didn't see action.

Then there were a number of reasonably good quality regular battalions who had seen no or little campaigning, but were still composed of long-service regulars - examples are the Scots Greys and Halkett's 5th Brigade. You certainly wouldn't describe these units as "green" - they were well trained long-service regulars. The Guards consisted of a mostly long-service regulars with a good reputation for discipline, but most hadn't seen campaign service and the Guards had also received 400 "boys" from the depots before the campaign, so I wouldn't class British Guards at Waterloo as the unconquerable killing machines that most wargamers class British Guards as!

And then you had what Wellington described as "my old Spanish infantry", who he regarded as "the best infantry in the world". He had earlier considered that one of these veteran units was worth two well trained regular units from the UK. These were the two KGL infantry brigades, and the 3rd, 8th, 9th and 10th British Brigades. From the battalion muster rolls, the average length of service with the colours of these battalions was at least six years. So these were really tough veteran units with exceptional cohesion - in battle they would take a lot of punishment and still hold together.

[bahdahbum]

but most hadn't seen campaign service

:

That's exacrly the point . As we spoke in terms of brigade&division cohesion, those units did not have time to devellop the same kind of cohesion as others did .

There were veterans on all sides , and green units on all sides ...

[Ambiorix]

With access to good reference on the Dutch-Belgium army no doubt, the only references I have are the two osprey books not sure how good they are.

Could you suggest a good book on the Dutch-Belgium army of that period.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Fortunately for you, Dutch covers only a very restricted linguistic area and thus many write in English in order to be able to sell more books, especially in niche subjects;

FYI, below a link to books ‘The Netherlands field army during the Waterloo campaign’ written by a Dutchman : http://1815fieldarmy.nl/
and the online-study: http://www.waterloo-campaign.nl/

In addition, please read this site, putting the notorious Dutch Belgian ‘cowardice’ into perspective: http://www.napolun.com/mirror/napoleoni ... wards.html

As already known in ancient times, ‘history is written by the victorious’