Prussian List Suggestions

[CutEmUp]

Hi, I'm building an 1813 Prussian corps in 25mm with 650 points. I have come up with two list to decide between. Would someone who has played be so kind as to give me an idea of which one would be more effective

List 1
Competent corps commander
Competent division commander
4x Average, drilled line
6x Average, conscript landwehr
4x Average, drilled dragoon
2x Horse Artillery
Artillery (howitzer) & Skirmsher (rifle) attachment
Competent division commander
4x Average, drilled line
6x Average, conscript landwehr
4x Average, drilled hussar
2x Field Artillery
Artillery (howitzer) & Skirmsher (rifle) attachment
Competent Division Commander
4x Average, drilled cuirassiers
4x Average, drilled cuirassiers
6x Landwehr cavalry
1x Artillery attachment

List two
Skilled corps commander
Competent division commander
4x Average, drilled line
4x Average, conscript landwehr
4x Average, drilled dragoon
2x horse artillery
Artillery and skirmisher (rifle) attachments
Competent division commander
4x Average, drilled line
4x Average, conscript landwehr
4x Average, drilled hussar
2x field artillery
Artillery and skirmisher (rifle) attachments
Competent division commander
4x Average, drilled reserve
4x Average, conscript landwehr
6x Average, conscript landwehr cav
2x field artillery
Artillery and skirmisher attachments

[terrys]

I think list 2 is better.
With Landwehr in each division you'll be struggling for command points if you use nothing but competent commanders.

[gelin]

Hello all,

I have the following Prussian 1813 lists, 800 points.
Comments please.


LIST A
Skilled Corps Commander

1st Mixed Division - Competent Division Commander
1 small Average Conscript Landwehr
1 small Average Drilled Musketeers
1 small Average Veteran Leib Infantry
1 large Average Concript Landwehr cavalry with lances
1 small Field Artillery
1 medium artillery attach
1 rifle skirmish attach

2nd Mixed Division - Competent Division Commander
1 small Average Conscript Landwehr
1 small Average Drilled Musketeers
1 small Average Drilled Reserve Infantry
1 small Average Drilled Dragoons
1 small Average Drilled Hussars
1 small Horse Artillery
1 medium artillery attach
1 rifle skirmish attach

Guard Mixed Division
1 small Average Veteran Guard Infantry
1 small Average Veteran Guard Cuirassiers - shock
1 small Average Conscript Landwehr
1 medium artillery attach
1 rifle skirmish attach


LIST B
Skilled Corps Commander

1st Mixed Division - Competent Division Commander
1 small Average Conscript Landwehr
1 small Average Drilled Musketeers
1 small Average Veteran Leib Infantry
1 large Average Concript Landwehr cavalry with lances
1 small Field Artillery
1 medium artillery attach
1 rifle skirmish attach

2nd Mixed Division - Competent Division Commander
1 small Average Conscript Landwehr
1 small Average Drilled Musketeers
1 small Average Drilled Dragoons
1 small Average Drilled Hussars
1 small Horse Artillery
1 medium artillery attach
1 rifle skirmish attach

3rd Mixed Division - Competent Division Commander
1 small Average Conscript Landwehr
1 large Average Drilled Reserve Infantry
1 small Average Veteran Leib Infantry
1 small Average Veteran Cuirassiers - shock
1 medium artillery attach
1 rifle skirmish attach

[donm]

Here is my current list for 800 points in 15mm

Corps Commander Skilled Charismatic
1st Division
Commander Skilled charismatic
2 x small average drilled line
1 x small average conscript line
1 x small light cavalry average drilled line
1 x small heavy cavalry average drilled line
1 x small horse artillery average drilled line
1 x artillery attachment
2 x rifle skirmisher attachment
(Shirmisher attachmens to the drilled infantry, artillery attachment to the horse artillery.)

2nd Division
Commander Regular
1 x small average drilled line
1 x small average drilled line
1 x small average conscript line
1 x small light cavalry average conscript line
1 x small medium artillery average drilled line
1 x artillery attachment
1 x rifle skirmisher attachment
(Attachments, one to each drilled infantry)

3rd Division
Commander Regular
1 x small average conscript line
1 x small average conscript line
1 x small average conscript line
1 x small light cavalry average conscript line
1 x small medium artillery average drilled line
1 x artillery attachment
1 x rifle skirmisher attachment
(Attachments, one to each conscript infantry)

For my free unit, I take another unit of dragoons and place them in the 2nd Division. (remember there must be one more infantry unit, than cavalry in a mixed division).

The charismatic commanders are a must as they give you another dice to rally your conscripts.

With a skilled Commander you have an initative of 5, so a good chance of attacking and an extra unit.

Don

[CutEmUp]

Well after screwing around with it, my list (650 so far) has changed to

Skilled Commander

1st brigade
Competent Commander
Small, avg, line w/rifle skirmishers
Small, avg, line w/rifle skirmishers
Large, avg, conscript w/officer
Small Field Arty w/howitzer
Small, avg, dragoons

2nd brigade
Competent Commander
Small, avg, line w/rifle skirmishers
Small, avg, line w/rifle skirmishers
Large, avg, conscript
Small Horse Arty
Small, avg, hussars
Large, avg, conscript lancers w/medium arty

You gotta fill out the landwehr or they're useless. At 800 I'm adding another skilled general and 2 units of cuirassiers, which will give me some major kick. I would drop the landwehr cav down to the cavalry division

[SirGarnet]

1. Restriction: More than half the units in each Mixed Division must be infantry - the 2nd Brigade is only at half!

2. Do you have particular doctrine/tactical plans for each brigade?

3. Would it make more sense to have the Dragoons in the sceond brigade with the lancers for mounted punch and give them the attached guns? If you want a Cavalry unit in the 1st Brigade the Hussars would do.

4. Is the reason for larger Landwehr that you are going to start with the Landwehr in the front line? What I was thinking about was triangular doctrine with min size Landwehr in back for support/reserve/flank guard etc. and the line troops stronger instead.

5. I tend in most games to like having at least one more capable infantry unit for the tough jobs, which could be size, quality, and/or attachments. But interchangeable infantry has simplicity in its favor.

6. Wouldn't the officer attached to conscripts prove more useful with a unit requiring agility, such as one of the mounted?

7. With horse artillery available, do the lancers really need the attached artillery? Might that be better with front line infantry, or the Dragoons?

8. It seems thin on ADCs, but at 650 I suppose you don't have much choice. I like the heavy cavalry division idea at 800.

(I assume that Training is Drilled when not mentioned.)

[CutEmUp]

Oh shoot, didn't realize it

An alternative would be

Competent Commander

1st Brigade
Competent Commander
Small avg line w/rifle skirmish
Small poor reserves
Large avg landwehr
Foot artillery w/howitzers

2nd Brigade
Competent Commander
Small avg line w/rifle skirmish
Small poor reserves
Large avg Landwehr
Foot artillery w/howitzers

Cavalry Brigade
Competent Commander
Small Avg Dragoons
Small Avg Hussars
Large Avg Landwehr
Small Horse artillery w/medium attachment

I have a lot of artillery for 650 so I'm counting on that to make things happen. The landwehr have to go up front now and the reserves will be the back up brigade. The cavalry can either overload one flank or provide mutual support to both brigades in a central position.

Should add that I'll be very aggressive, pull the artillery up close blast away then charge in. If I feel anything is about to break then it's in with the cavalry, but again, wheeling up the horse artillery, poor in a barrage and then charge!

When I expand to 800 I'll add the cuirassiers, bump the reserves up to average, drop the dragoons and hussars each into one infantry division and then make the cavalry commander and corps commander skilled

[KendallB]

Recovering cohesion with the Landwehr can be tricky - I know from experience! I have found that prevention is the best cure so I reduce the number of hits on them by making them a large unit and reduce the number of skirmishing dice against them by adding a cavalry attachment. In fact I would use cavalry attachments over skirmishers any day. The Prussian army is one of the few which allow lots of them and you can really dent the skirmishing firepower of your opponent - even the British!

[CutEmUp]

Sounds good, turned it into this

Skilled command

Competent command
Small avg line w/rifle skirmishers
Small poor reserve w/medium artillery
Large avg conscript w/cavalry
Small Foot artillery

Competent command
Small avg line w/rifle skirmishers
Small poor reserve w/medium artillery
Large avg conscript w/cavalry
Small avg hussars

Competent command
Large avg Landwher cavalry
Small vet dragoons
Small horse arty w/medium attachment

[SirGarnet]

1. This is a more formidable and versatile force. I like the concept of having some cavalry in the 2nd Brigade while artillery in the 1st so they can be deployed for different roles. WIth all those stodgy Prussian brigadiers, the Skilled Commander will be a help on the CPs.

2. Why do the poor reserve get medium artillery attached when they are likely to hang back in support. Give to the line troops or as horse guns to the cavalry, who get 2 dice when shooting.

3. The horse artillery attachment only increases its fire at medium or close range from 6 dice to 7 and would seem better used to give a boost to one of the cavalry.

[KendallB]

I agree with the horse arty getting an attachment. Give it to the dragoons instead as it helps negate any dice loss when fighting shock heavies. Also I think veteran cavalry is actually not worth it. I quite happily use nothing but drilled for my Russians. I'd reduce the landwehr cav to a small unit as it's best to be used for support and charging wavering units. All these points savings means you could boost up another unit or get a BC to lead a unit.

[CutEmUp]

You gotta have 6

[donm]

I think you have too much poor / landwehr infantry and will find your infantry attack being halted very easily.

I use small units of Landwehr to support my drilled / average troops, remember you get two extra dice in combat for rear support.

You need to at least make your Corps commander charismatic. The 10 points for the extra rally / recover dice is a must. You will need to be very lucky to rally poor and conscripts with just one dice.

I personnally would have no more than the compulsory cavalry and try to get three mixed divisions. Having cavalry across the battlefield is a great advantage.

Don't forget you Landwehr light cavalry can operate as skirmishers. A great way to slow an enemy attack. don't forget that they will reduce your enemies medium range fire.

Don