Jagdpanzer IV L/70

[4kEY]

Does anyone think this unit should be strengthened? Two reasons I ask, it has essentially the same armor as the Panther, 80mm sloped, and the same gun. For attack, I say increase HA to match the Panther, leave SA at 4.

While we're at it, the armor of the L/48 version should probably be strengthend as well.

[deducter]

If you're interested in changing unit stats, check out my mod:
http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=30708
Nearly all units got attention and more balanced stats. This is especially noticeable for 1943.

I will of course do 1944. I most certainly will have the Jagdpanzer IV L/70 have the same gun as the Panther.

[4kEY]

Your mod has not gone un-noticed, deducter. I've seriously thought about playing it, and have read your changes. The concept has been an inspiration.

I had a hunch 43 East would be too easy, so I immediately raised the EXP of enemy units by 200 points before starting. Obviously there's some units set to certain exp levels, and I didn't mess with them because I didn't want to see the unit locations. I just pulled the screen to the far right and opened the scenario paramter window for each map. About the only time a turkey shoot is really fun is at Dunkirk. However, even raising the Exp doesn't seem to make much of a difference. If I weren't such a rugged defense magnet, I'd do more.

[deducter]

It really depends on your core composition. If you're fielding all Tigers/Panthers with 3-4 stars and overstrength, you'd have to give the AI something like 30 experienced KV-85 per scenario in Kursk to make it hard. And in the vanilla game, for the player it is trivial to get all the best equipment. I don't demonstrate such techniques in my AAR videos because there's no point, no strategy or tactics to think about. If you're fielding a historical core, 1943 is reasonably challenging on General.

I personally find it very boring to roll over the AI with the best equipment. Fortunately, the game can be modded and played in different ways.

[4kEY]

I like to keep around a handful of Panzer III and IV tanks for that reason, and historical accuracy.

Also, I don't overstrength too much anymore as I don't see how it makes a difference. As I recall, a four star Panzer at 10 STR has the same EXP bonus as a 4 star Panzer at 14 STR. I think having extra Str points encourages the player, me, to be reckless.

[4kEY]

Where are some of your videos, deducter?

[airbornemongo101]

Where are some of your videos, deducter?

In the AAR forum area 4key

[deducter]

I like to keep around a handful of Panzer III and IV tanks for that reason, and historical accuracy.

Also, I don't overstrength too much anymore as I don't see how it makes a difference. As I recall, a four star Panzer at 10 STR has the same EXP bonus as a 4 star Panzer at 14 STR. I think having extra Str points encourages the player, me, to be reckless.

Overstrength has one critical advantage with high INI units like Tigers/Panthers: it allows proportionally more of those units to shoot first, preventing the opposing unit from shooting back. From my understanding, for each point of INI advantage, 20% of the unit's current strength gets to attack first, and if it scores a kill or suppression, the opposing unit doesn't get to fire back. With late war units, almost every dice roll is a kill, so having the initiative advantage translates not only to higher kills, but also lower losses, especially when you overstrength. This influence is extremely noticeable with high INI, high attack units, like the 88 gun, experienced late war fighters, Panthers/Tigers, etc.

[4kEY]

<< Corrected.

[Chris10]

This influence is extremely noticeable with high INI, high attack units, like the 88 gun, experienced late war fighters, Panthers/Tigers, etc.

In this regard the Tiger I is underrated a fair bit according to his stats compared to the IS-2.
Tiger I HA=17 GD=23 INI=11
IS-2 HA=18 GD=24 INI=12

The IS-2 only advantage over the Tiger I was his frontal armor in the glacis plate which hardly could be penetrated by the 8,8 KwK36/L51 carried by the Tiger.
All other armor could be penetrated by the Tigers main gun at a 1000m distance. At the same distance the IS-2 could penetrate the Tiger armor.
Now comes the tricky part. While the +1 surplus in armor is acceptable for the IS-2 the HA should be higher for both (HA=20 or 22), whereas the INITIATIVE has to be changed to favor the Tiger by a fair bit and there are very specific reasons for this:
1. IS-2 ammuniton was dichotomous and his rate of fire was vastly lower even in the upgraded later version of the IS-2
2. German optical periscopes used in the Tiger were far superior to their russian counterparts and Tigers scored far more hits with a higher firerate
3. German Tiger tank crews were very experienced and very well trained quite the contrary to their russian counterparts. As the Tiger was not supplied to regular divisions these crews have been especially trained to serve in the independent heavy tank brigades and looking at the loss-kill ratio of the existed hvy.tank brigades using Tiger or Tiger II tanks show some nasty numbers.
Examples: Schw.Pz.Abt 502: Total Losses=88; Enemy Tanks: 1400 (official Wehrmacht Daily Reports) kill-loss ratio combat:15,9
SS-Abt. 103: Combat Losses=10;Enemy Tanks: 500 kill-loss ratio combat:50
Whereas about 60% of all Tigers ever built have been lost without enemy action
4. IS-2 armor often failed due to the low steel quality

The fact that training and experience was more decisive than individual vehicle parameters was prooven in an engagement of the Sch.Pz.Abt 502 in
Daugavpils,Latvia in July 1944 when 5 Tigers swallowed up 16 IS-2 in about 10 minutes without taking any hit.
The russians made things up by overrunning the Wehrmacht with sheer numbers and throwing them dead with material and not because of quality
armament or combat skills.

Tigers INI should be 13 or even 14 to equal the INI of the Tiger II.
Just sayin...

On topic:
As for Jagdpanzer IV L/70:
While the main guns of the Panther and the Jgd.Pz.IV have been slightly modificated due to installing reasons they deliveded the same performance so
HA should be equal.

And just for the record
The HA for the Panther should be higher than for the Tiger cause the performance of the 7,5-cm-KwK 42 L/70 was better than the 8,8-cm-KwK36 L/56 mounted in the Tiger I. The Panther main gun had slighly more armor penetrating power in literally all distances 500m,1000m,2000m.
This was due to a higher muzzle velocity of the 7,5-cm-KwK 42 L/70 gun.
errr.....ok..dont wanna throw the entire game balance overboad..I shut up

[deducter]

Hey Chris10, thanks for your input, please feel free to also add other comments in my thread if you'd like.

I think we can all agree that in the DLCs, the German player suffers so few losses that the kill/loss is more like 200:1 or something like that. The player also generally has more experienced troops with heroes compared to the AI, so all of that is taken care of by the game mechanics.

If you've played GC43, you will already notice how much superior the German tanks are to the Russian counterparts, where there's no challenge even on Manstein difficulty as long as you field all Tigers/Panthers.

It's not a good idea from a game balance perspective to combine too many high INI high attack units, since those prove to be more or less invincible. Hence, the Tiger I in my mod has 19 HA and 11 INI, which is plenty good when combined with a 23 GD. Giving it even better INI is a bad idea. The Panther A in my mod has 20 HA and 12 INI, to represent the better gun. If they have even better stats, then even the KV-85/JS-1/SU-152 (SU-152 and ISU-152 in my mod has 20 HA, 6 INI) wouldn't be a challenge in 1943.

I try to have historical justification for my unit stats, but balance is very important too, so I try to reach a happy medium.

I try to shift the player away from having too many Tigers/Panthers, by having them cost a lot more and reducing their ammo/fuel significantly.

[Chris10]

Hey Chris10, thanks for your input, please feel free to also add other comments in my thread if you'd like.

I think we can all agree that in the DLCs, the German player suffers so few losses that the kill/loss is more like 200:1 or something like that. The player also generally has more experienced troops with heroes compared to the AI, so all of that is taken care of by the game mechanics.

If you've played GC43, you will already notice how much superior the German tanks are to the Russian counterparts, where there's no challenge even on Manstein difficulty as long as you field all Tigers/Panthers.

It's not a good idea from a game balance perspective to combine too many high INI high attack units, since those prove to be more or less invincible. Hence, the Tiger I in my mod has 19 HA and 11 INI, which is plenty good when combined with a 23 GD. Giving it even better INI is a bad idea. The Panther A in my mod has 20 HA and 12 INI, to represent the better gun. If they have even better stats, then even the KV-85/JS-1/SU-152 (SU-152 and ISU-152 in my mod has 20 HA, 6 INI) wouldn't be a challenge in 1943.

I try to have historical justification for my unit stats, but balance is very important too, so I try to reach a happy medium.

I try to shift the player away from having too many Tigers/Panthers, by having them cost a lot more and reducing their ammo/fuel significantly.

I know where you comiing from...balance can be a bitch when in collission with history
btw..all of the high tier german armor carried a lot more ammo thann russian tanks so nerfing their ammo...hummm...
example
Tiger I = 92 Shells 5000 MG-ammo
IS-2= 28 Shells 2630 MG-ammo

Panther = 79 Shells 4200 MG-ammo
KV-85 = 71 Shells 3260 MG-ammo

Tiger II = 80 Shells 4800 MG-ammo
T34/85 = 56 Shells 1955 MG-ammo

Jagdpanther = 57 Shells
ISU-100 = 33 Shells

Increasing Tigers stats while highly increasing price would make the Tigers the rare but nearly invincible appearances on the battlefield they really were.
Only thinking loud...

Truth is that the Panthers,Tigers,Tigers II, Jagdpanthers vastly outclassed all russian armor in combination with their highly skilled and experienced crews.
The solution for the game would consist in increasing the number of russian units to resemble what really happend...
According to newer research in now open russian archives military historians now talk about possible 6600 Tank losses during Operation Citadell,
a fact which was held secret during the USSR times for obvious propaganda reasons and myth building.

Tiger crews annihalated entire brigades and tank columns with only 4-5 Tigers...in the east and the west.
American commanders forbade their tank comanders to mention the word Tiger over radio as this resulted in more than one ocasion in panic and chaotic retreat.
In June 13th 1944 SS Tank Commander Wittmann screwed an entire UK Tank Batallion and armored Mot-Infanty Batallion with 6 Tiger Tanks in the french village Villers-Bocage. The brits lost 20 Cromwell Tanks,4 Sherman Firefly Tanks, a bunch of Stuarts and about 30 amored troop carriers.


In

[deducter]

It doesn't matter how many more tanks you give the Russians because of gameplay mechanics. As I said, playing on Manstein (+5 strength to all AI units) isn't a challenge with all Tigers/Panthers. All of the German heavy tanks already significantly outclass the Russian armor, even with vanilla stats. And I have buffed the stats for heavy German tanks in my mod.

See:
http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=32363

The lowered ammo/fuel is to simulate mechanical problems with earlier Tigers/Panthers. It forces the player to pause and resupply, so that Tigers will tend to stall out when attacking. There's no other way of simulating this within the game.

Tigers are already nearly invincible in the vanilla game, at least in SP. They remain nearly invincible in my mod. But my goal is to make sure they aren't prestige saving, and they aren't always the best choice.

In my mod they cost 1320, but that's still too cheap if they retain their original fuel/ammo AND have much more INI and HA. The other solution is to increase the prestige cost for Tigers to absurd levels, like 5000 prestige. But I don't think that's the way to go.

[Chris10]

In my mod they cost 1320, but that's still too cheap if they retain their original fuel/ammo AND have much more INI and HA. The other solution is to increase the prestige cost for Tigers to absurd levels, like 5000 prestige. But I don't think that's the way to go.

oh..I didnt thought about 5000...that seems absurd,you are right...something like 1890 or so...short under 2000
I havent played 43 dlc but in the vanilla game the Tigers get chewed up pretty quick by IS-2 in the Germany east scenario so I considered this slightly off.
Of couse the game mechanic is pretty limited and does not allow for sophisticated modelling of reality but on the toher side the simplicity is what catches players..just like Panzer General...heck..I remember entire nigts without sleep,squared eyes and dying of hunger and dehydration next to the open fridge...It was like if superglue stucked me to the screen...

[deducter]

Ah right, I should probably mention that my mod is designed ONLY for the DLCs. The DLCs are very different from the campaign in the vanilla game. Many more T-34s, fewer heavy tanks like the IS-2.

[4kEY]

You both bring up valid points. This has been good reading.

I also thought about the SU-122/152...the SU-122 could supposedly blow the turret off a TIger I with close range direct fire. And, I assume the 152 would be an even bigger bastard. I do not think the game correctly models the anit-tank, direct fire qualities of these units. Raising the values of the 152, deducter, was a good call. Did you only increase direct-fire mode?

I also read that the power was due more to concussive effect than penetration. Maybe there isn't a way to correctly portray this.

[bt2steam]

I have always felt JgdPz IV L/70 was more of a total ambush hit and run type AT chassis its ability to operate in the open country was very limited due to its very low profile it would bog down too much.However if given the right conditions and position it was lethal @1000 yrds. Intiative should also be raised on most german panzer and SS divs due to the fact on "Tank to Tank" communications instead of HQ to Tank comms. it enabled the SS divs later in the war such as the Ardennes offensive to better cooridinate their attacks

[deducter]

You both bring up valid points. This has been good reading.

I also thought about the SU-122/152...the SU-122 could supposedly blow the turret off a TIger I with close range direct fire. And, I assume the 152 would be an even bigger bastard. I do not think the game correctly models the anit-tank, direct fire qualities of these units. Raising the values of the 152, deducter, was a good call. Did you only increase direct-fire mode?

I also read that the power was due more to concussive effect than penetration. Maybe there isn't a way to correctly portray this.

The SU-122 is very tricky to balance. I don't think it was that great of a AT weapon, and historically it was a failure as a AT unit, so in my mod the SU-122 has a HA of 9, but increased GD of 14 (T-34 chassis). You run into quite a few SU-122 in GC43, and you can capture at least two in GC42 and GC43, so I didn't want to make the SU-122 too good. The SU-76 was better as a AT unit, so it has a HA of 12 (same as T-34/41), but it still suffers due to poor armor.

The SU-152 and ISU-152, on the other hand, were used in AT mode quite effectively, especially in ambush, so I increased the SU-152's direct fire mode HA to 20 and I think indirect fire mode HA very slightly, to the low 10s. There aren't that many SU-152 in GC43 anyway, and they only have 4 ammo, so there are plenty of ways of dealing with them.

[deducter]

I have always felt JgdPz IV L/70 was more of a total ambush hit and run type AT chassis its ability to operate in the open country was very limited due to its very low profile it would bog down too much.However if given the right conditions and position it was lethal @1000 yrds. Intiative should also be raised on most german panzer and SS divs due to the fact on "Tank to Tank" communications instead of HQ to Tank comms. it enabled the SS divs later in the war such as the Ardennes offensive to better cooridinate their attacks

I think this is represented very well, at least in the Grand Campaigns, by the fact that the player usually has more experienced troops with heroes attached than the AI. If anything the AI needs help more often than not to make a challenging game.

[4kEY]

The SU-152 was pretty badass. The concussion would kill the crew and destroy the interior without harming ammunition or vehicle chasis, much like the Nebelwerfer/Wurfrahmen - at first, Russia suspected Germany was using chemical weapons because their dead had blood coming out of every orifice, without any real indication of cause of death. Concussion.