Hastings 1066

[Old_Warrior]

Ok - this thread is for a serious discussion of what a GOOD Hastings 1066 scenario should have. I am going to build a "BASIC" Hastings and post it here. It will use existing troop types from the folders we have in the released modules. That way folks can download it and look it over and comment. Once the module is ready for BETA testing then I will use the exact units that get listed in the DAG list. Note: I will use for now whatever troop descriptions that are in the WftS TT supplement.

Here is how I want to divide up the topic:

1. Army Composition

a. Normans
b. Anglo-Saxons

2. Map

3. Time Limit

4. Placement

Kicking this off ...

1.a Norman army - estimates of 7,500 to 10,000 - Marren says something like this:

2,000 horse, 4,000 HI, 1,500 archers/light infantry

The army was divided into 3 groups. Bretons on the left - Normans in the Center - French and Flemish on the right. (other groups were present as well) - not sure of the sizes of each of the contingents. Will poke around a bit to try and figure them out (apart from traveling to Bayeux!)

This link has a basic map of the battle layout:

http://www.britishbattles.com/norman-co ... stings.htm

Much conjecture remains concerning the army composition but this much is known: there was quite a bit more missile forces on the Norman side than you would get in a typical Norman army of the WotS army lists.

The deployment of the three forces would be something like this:

First rank: Archers/Slingers/Crossbow - source is the booklet 1066 by Peter Marren.

Second rank: Heavy Infantry

Third rank: dismounted Melites & mounted Knights

This is a BROAD outline. The map from the link above does not say what each of the unit-org boxes is composed of - and I figure that we could debate this long after the module is released. My feeling has always been to try and get the best percentage of troops types rather than argue over whether there was a particular type of unit present.

1.b Anglo-Saxon Army - 7,000 men (and upwards depending on who you listen to) - this number either rose as the battle unfolded or that number was satisfied as the battle unfolded. Take your pick. I am disposed to have a basic line with some Fyrd coming up to join the fight from the board edge. WHERE they come from could be discussed but probably via one of the major roads.

Marren says that the Fyrd were left behind as well as much of the archers (due to the horses being needed to transport the army). The line was composed of Huscarls. However, he does say that there may have been local Fyrd that showed up - folks that had their homes burned or were just wanting to defend with the army. Again we come into conflict probably on just how much Fyrd was present.

Thus the Anglo-Saxon army probably will be a tad easier to build up than the Normans.

2. The Map - I plan on using a topo program I have but also will read the battle narratives that I have from the web and from books. From what I read the topography changed not too long after the battle. I am sure that whatever I come up with will not please everyone but I will post the scenario here and folks will be welcome to offer up their own ideas.

3. Time Limit - I am guessing that 25 turns would be long enough. It was a long battle. I would almost bump it up to 30 turns but I think that 25 is long enough for the Normans to try and goad the Anglo-Saxons to come down off of the hill. Allows for several assaults on the hill by the Melites and other foot troop types of the Normans.

4. Placement - the map from the link above is reliable but again I will check around. Any battle always has some element of grayness about it.

This concludes my opening comments on the design process. What I want to do is build this from scratch and THEN if someone has put a scenario together that they think might help me I will look it over. There will be a list of Contributors in the Credits for the scenario. The Description is not going to be long as this is one of the more well known battles in history. Right up there with Waterloo, Gettysburg and Stalingrad and others.

[Old_Warrior]

Follow on discussion to this:

Composition of the Norman army:

Questions:

1. The Oath of Fealty book has the Feudal French lists. Thus I will just have to use whatever icon fits best. If you have an opinion of the folder and particular unit please list it here.

The unit types are:

a. Knights-Fr
b. Knights-Flemish
c. Feudal Spearmen-Fr
d. Crossbow-Fr
e. Foot Archers-Fr

If you think that there were other types of Flemish forces there let me know.

2. The WftS book has a special listing for the dismounted Melites noted in the 1066 section just under the main listing. Again if you have a particular unit from one of the folders that I should use let me know.

3. The Anglo-Saxon army had a particular type of shield and helmet. I am aiming to use an icon that matches that as best I can. From what I have read they also had a particular hair style though that is less important. Let me know if you have a choice of icon that works best.

I am going to do some design work on this today and hopefully have at least a working model ready by the weekend.

[Old_Warrior]

My Hastings scenario is ready to be looked over. Send me a PM and I will send you a link to the location on my server. Serious reviewers ONLY please. Be frank but kind with your reviews!

[Sabratha]

Well, one tricky thing to take into account is the terrain, specifically the hill where the anglo-saxons are.

I recently picked up an online multiplayer challenge of Hastings (I don't know who made it, sorry).
It had a large number of huscarls (about half the English army) which were superior, armoured, heavy weapons HF (armed with ranged javelins to boot) standing in a neat line on a hill. Both flanks were pretty much covered by swamp and the map was pretty narrow otherwise.

My Norman army was mostly average spearmen with a few superior armoured lancer knights. The knights were still outnumbered by the huscars and both armies were otherwise even in total numbers.

So what was the main problem with this scenario? It quickly turned into a "king of the hill" waiting game.

I as the Norman had too few of my knughts to have a realistic chance of braking through the hill. A 1st time attack on a huscarl with my knights gave just a 50/50 chance at the first attack and any subsequent rounds f combat would be to my knights disadvantage. Also the huscars were more numerous than my knights, so I'd face a double strike on the 2nd round on most of my knights had I attacked. The rest of the norman infantry were pretty much useless, unless attacking an already disordered ennemy. I was also unable to try to flan the english, as the map was narrow and I'd have to move my cavalry through the swamps, making them easy pickings for ennemy MF held in reserve.

The English player however too was in no position to attack. While his army was able to easily stand its ground on that hill, moving into the flat plain in front would make them easy picking for my lancer cavalry.

The end effect? He lined his troops along the hill, while I moved most of my melee units back to regroup, while moving only my LF archers forward to harrass the ennemy with arrows and hoping to lure him down from the hill. It turned into a "game of chicken" of sorts.

I talked with my opponent via the in-game chat, we both agreed that we reached a moot point - each is totally in control while defending, but neither can hope to win by attack. Perfect stalemate.


So... what should be learned from this? When creating the scenario, make sure not to make a stalemate-bait game. Do not make both sides invulneravle in defence, or neither will attack and the game will be just 26 turns of the armies waiting for the other to move.

[Old_Warrior]

I am going to post a challenge. Would like to see what folks think of it.