Heading to Prokhorovka - any tips?

[kverdon]

Hi all,

I am off to Prokhorovka! (DLC43E) Can anyone offer some advice on this one, it looks to be a heck of a fight. Here is the Core I have:

6 x Panzer Grenadier (43)
4 x Pioneer (43)
9 x Panther (3 Elite)
6 x Tiger (1 Elite)
2 x KV-85
2 x Elephant
2 x 17cm Arty (Towed)
4 x Wurf Arty
2 x StuH 42
1 x Su-122
2 x Sdkfz 7
5 x FW-190
3 x Ju-87D

thanks,

Kevin

[ivanov]

With that kind of core you'll just need to drive towards the objectives and plaster the red bastards. You shouldn't have any problems with that

[Zhivago]

Consider upgrading the JU-87's to ME 410's

[Amaranthus]

No strategic bombers? 10 infantry is probably okay, but I'd suggest converting a couple of PGs to FJs. Upgrade the 17cm if you can -- the 43 Nbwl are terrific (albeit shorter range).

My core looks quite different, but a lot of this is personal preference. I couldn't live without my 2 88s, and I have more ATs.

[kverdon]

Thanks for the Advice. I'll look at upgrading a few PG to FJ. Could be handy.

I've been looking at the Ju-87 to Me-410 upgrade. The added defense (vrs less soft attack) looks nice but its a huge prestige hit. However with 10,000 in the bank perhaps worth the investment.

It's a tough call on the 17cm. I love the hitting power of the Nbwl but the added range of the 17cm (and ammo count) have been a huge help in big city fights. The added range has let me suppress supporting Arty while then moving in with Wurfs and infantry to take an objective hex without return fire. Its also nice to not have all my arty go dry at the same time .

Oh, and I DO have an 88 that I forgot to mention, had him since 1940 and he's saved my bacon a number of times!

Kevin

[brettz123]

Consider upgrading the JU-87's to ME 410's

I disagree turn them into JU-87Gs these really are good at knocking tanks down 8 or so strength points. And take your elefants they are brutal against every russian tank including JS-1s.

[charonjr]

Personally I like a mix of Ju 87D/G and Me 410s - just posted my end '43 core in the core thread.

Each has its specific role and while I like that I dont have to escort the Me 410s and they often are usefull vs. Soviets bombers and even weakened fighters, they simply lack the punch of a Ju 87D or G vs. ground targets.

[brettz123]

Personally I like a mix of Ju 87D/G and Me 410s - just posted my end '43 core in the core thread.

Each has its specific role and while I like that I dont have to escort the Me 410s and they often are usefull vs. Soviets bombers and even weakened fighters, they simply lack the punch of a Ju 87D or G vs. ground targets.

I agree I like them for taking on very light things (artillery, armored cars, and T-70s), knocking off weakened fighters, and taking on bombers (even full strength ones). I upgraded all my Stukas to Gs but I really did miss the ability to take on infantry with them. They are certainly specialized for the anti tank role.

[Zhivago]

Consider upgrading the JU-87's to ME 410's

I disagree turn them into JU-87Gs these really are good at knocking tanks down 8 or so strength points. And take your elefants they are brutal against every russian tank including JS-1s.

Check out the variables between the JU-87G and the ME-410. There is no comparison. The JU-87G is a one-trick pony, and one that you have to protect every turn. I upgraded my two, 14 strength JU87D's and my two 14 strength BF-110G's to ME410's. They wallop the hell out of armor at that strength, and can take a big chunk out of full-strength enemy fighters too. The biggest thing is that they can either be used to help wipe the sky clear of Russian planes, or they can go on bombing runs--they are not tied to your fighters. They have twice the fuel range of the JU-87G, which is also very crucial. Pound for pound, the only German tactical bomber that bests the ME-410 is the DO-335, which is not available until late 44. So, unless you have 7 FW-190's in your core force to be able to escort your JU-87G's around, consider the ME-410.

[brettz123]

Consider upgrading the JU-87's to ME 410's

I disagree turn them into JU-87Gs these really are good at knocking tanks down 8 or so strength points. And take your elefants they are brutal against every russian tank including JS-1s.

Check out the variables between the JU-87G and the ME-410. There is no comparison. The JU-87G is a one-trick pony, and one that you have to protect every turn. I upgraded my two, 14 strength JU87D's and my two 14 strength BF-110G's to ME410's. They wallop the hell out of armor at that strength, and can take a big chunk out of full-strength enemy fighters too. The biggest thing is that they can either be used to help wipe the sky clear of Russian planes, or they can go on bombing runs--they are not tied to your fighters. They have twice the fuel range of the JU-87G, which is also very crucial. Pound for pound, the only German tactical bomber that bests the ME-410 is the DO-335, which is not available until late 44. So, unless you have 7 FW-190's in your core force to be able to escort your JU-87G's around, consider the ME-410.

Hehehehe I do have 7 FW-190s in my core . It looks like we just have a different preference. I find the reality is that the 410 is a good multipurpose unit but not as good at anything. The real bonus being that the AI never attacks it with fighters (ever). It isn't as good against fighters as a FW-190, it isn't nearly as good against armor as the JU-87G, and it isn't as good against troops as the JU-87D. Don't get me wrong I like them but only because the BF-110 is one of my favorite fighters of all time so the two I take I convert to 410s.

[kverdon]

Have not quite made up my mind. Its either go with 2xMe-410 and 1x Ju-87G or 2x-Ju87G and 1x Me-410. Its hard, I do like the hitting power of Anti-Armor Hitting power of the Ju-87G but the versatility of the Me-410 is appealing as well. Generally I'm not after the Luft guys to take out an armored unit, they are more to soften them up or finish them off.

thanks,

Kevin

[brettz123]

Have not quite made up my mind. Its either go with 2xMe-410 and 1x Ju-87G or 2x-Ju87G and 1x Me-410. Its hard, I do like the hitting power of Anti-Armor Hitting power of the Ju-87G but the versatility of the Me-410 is appealing as well. Generally I'm not after the Luft guys to take out an armored unit, they are more to soften them up or finish them off.

thanks,

Kevin

When you are getting counter attacked by 10 tanks including 4 KV-85s and you drop 5 JU-87Gs right on top of them you will be pretty impressed. 4 stars and knocking off 6-8 strength points off any armor that moves (except IS-1s they are a little bit tougher).

Pretty much a flying wrecking ball at that point. Can't do that with ME-410s.

The really big upside is that the ME-110s and the ME-410s seem to gain experience the fastest of any unit other than the strategic bombers. They were my first units to reach 4 stars and I didn't use them in all of the scenarios.

[charonjr]

Since you can field 45+elite units there, but you currently only have 44+4 I would actually buy one Ju 87G and convert 2 to Me 410 due to the large number of enemy aircraft you will be facing.

[billmv44]

I love the Ju-87G (and the sound of the guns firing). I have 3 in my core. One of them has 3 heroes, giving it a +8 attack value. That unit erases enemy tank units in 1 shot. It may win the Knight's cross with the Golden Oak Leaves since it has almost 2900 kills so far. They do need to be escorted at all times. I also keep 2 Me-410s in addition to my 5 Fw-190s.

[Zhivago]

The quick comparison....ME410 v. JU87G

Fuel: ME 410 has 105 fuel, JU 87G has 51. To me, this is huge. The ME 410 can remain in the air 2x as long as the JU-87G without refueling. In a 15-20 turn scenario, this is huge.

Ammo: Both ME 410 and JU 87G have 7 ammo, however, the JU 87 will run out of gas before it gets close to expending its ammo because it will either run out of fuel or be attacked repeatedly. The only time I have ever seen the Russian fighters go after a ME 410 is if it is out of ammo. The only reason you need to spend a turn at an airfield with the ME 410 is because you need to reload ammo, not fuel.

Soft attack (against infantry and artillery pieces): ME 410 has an SA of 7, the JU87 has a SA of 6.

Hard attack (tanks and armor): The JU-87's one big advantage. The JU-87 has a HA of 13, and the ME 410 has a HA of 8. However, if you have ME 410's in your core that you have upgraded from BF-110's or JU-87's that have been around for a few DLC's and obtained heroes (like ones that add attack points), this evens things out.

Air attack: ME 410 has an AA of 16, the JU-87G has no offensive attack, but if run into accidentally has an AA of 5. Keep in mind that the BF 109G has an AA of 14, and the BF 109K has an AA of 16--equal to the ME 410. The FW 190 has an AA of 20. The ME-410, especially if over-strengthened, is as lethal as the best BF-109, and not far behind the FW-190.

Range: ME 410 can move 14 spaces per turn, and the JU 87G can move 11.

Spotting: The ME 410 has spotting of 2 hexes, the JU 87G has 1.

Initiative: The ME 410 has an initiative of 11--equal to that of the FW 190. The JU 87G has an initiative of 1.

I know the JU-87 is kind of the 57 Chevy of WW2, but it was already in decline by the battle of Kursk because it was too vulnerable to Russian aircraft. It is admittedly great against armor, but I want to get more bang for my buck (pun definitely intended!), and the ME-410 delivers on all accounts.

I have three FW-190s in my core, and four ME 410s and one HE-177. I have had absolutely no trouble maintaining air-superiority in every scenario except Prohkarovka, where the onslaught of Russian aircraft makes things about equal. Without having extra FW-190's in my core, I am able to utilize other units. I am able to field an extra three or four Panthers, Tigers, or arty pieces. Those units destroy much more enemy hard and soft units than either the ME-410 or JU-87G.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and preferences though.

[brettz123]

The quick comparison....ME410 v. JU87G

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and preferences though.

Yes the ME-410 can stay in the air twice as long and unfortunately it will still not cause as much damage as the JU-87G . Against the real heavy tanks (KV-85 and JS-I) the JU-87G will easily cause twice as much damage. So even if your ME-410 stays in the air twice as long it still will be lucky if it causes as much damage. And to be honest there are enough airfields in the game that this really isn't much of an issue anyway.

[Zhivago]

The quick comparison....ME410 v. JU87G

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and preferences though.

Yes the ME-410 can stay in the air twice as long and unfortunately it will still not cause as much damage as the JU-87G . Against the real heavy tanks (KV-85 and JS-I) the JU-87G will easily cause twice as much damage. So even if your ME-410 stays in the air twice as long it still will be lucky if it causes as much damage. And to be honest there are enough airfields in the game that this really isn't much of an issue anyway.

The ME 410 will get more shots in each scenario because of its huge fuel capacity. And I'd rather have four extra ground units in the fight instead of 7 FW-190's flying around solely to protect the JU-87G. The JU-87G is good at one other thing--it attracts Russian fighters like flies.

[Aloo]

The only time I have ever seen the Russian fighters go after a ME 410 is if it is out of ammo.

Ive had them attack my 410 a few times in Prokhorovka. They shout one down shooting it with a SPAAG first and then attacking with 2 fighters.

[brettz123]

The quick comparison....ME410 v. JU87G

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and preferences though.

Yes the ME-410 can stay in the air twice as long and unfortunately it will still not cause as much damage as the JU-87G . Against the real heavy tanks (KV-85 and JS-I) the JU-87G will easily cause twice as much damage. So even if your ME-410 stays in the air twice as long it still will be lucky if it causes as much damage. And to be honest there are enough airfields in the game that this really isn't much of an issue anyway.

The ME 410 will get more shots in each scenario because of its huge fuel capacity. And I'd rather have four extra ground units in the fight instead of 7 FW-190's flying around solely to protect the JU-87G. The JU-87G is good at one other thing--it attracts Russian fighters like flies.

Yes ground units are certainly nice to have but I don't ever feel like I don't have enough. Like I said I don't think it is so cut and dry to the ME-410 being a better option. My ME-410 that I have used since the first scenario in Poland does not have close to the same amount of kills as any of my 5 Stukas. The bottom line is that the Stuka is the best option you have for causing damage to the enemy until you start to get the good tanks in 42.

And if you pay attention to your fuel and airfields you don't actually end up losing much by refueling and rearming your stukas.

And you should remember that the FW-190 is actually pretty good at strafing so they aren't around just to escort Stukas all over the place. And if you plan ahead you can usually escort at least 2 stukas with a single fighter.

But the bottom line is that I don't build my CORE for just right now I am building my CORE to make sure that in 44 and 45 I have the fighter to deal with the increasing number of and better fighters that the Russians will be throwing at me and I have a feeling that I am going to need those 7 experienced fighters by then.

[Zhivago]

I have no argument that through 1942, the JU-87D is your best option as a tactical bomber. However, with the huge numbers of fighters and bombers you face in DLC 43, keeping a unit like the JU-87G that can only do one thing well is a luxury. Most importantly, if you want to keep the JU-87G alive for very long in DLC 43, it always needs to be escorted by a fighter. As such, you have two units that are tied up each turn to do one job. The ME410 is not as effective against armor as the JU-87G, but it is not as bad as you make it out to be.

I guess we could debate this on and on. Whatever floats your boat is what you should go with I guess.