Here are some interesting screen shots showing how experience affects infantry combat in Panzer Corps as it currently stands.
Here we have a company of German Rambo's (5 stars) attacking some dumb Russian guards (0 stars) for a 4/ 5 result, slightly favouring the axis
exp vs dumb.jpg (74.31 KiB) Viewed 3236 times
Now its the turn for the more evenly matched German dumbies to attack and surprisingly they are predicted to do almost as well despite the massive drop in stars (the gap in combat experience just cannot get any wider). German rambo must be scratching his head in amazement
dumb vs dumb.jpg (74.01 KiB) Viewed 3236 times
Now attacking the veterans
exp vs exp.jpg (70.83 KiB) Viewed 3236 times
in this picture 5 star German rambo attacks his opposite number... Ivan rambo, but Ivan rambo can't do any better than his dumb cousins (a 1 casualty difference when attacking the 5 star guards even with their city defenses). The only respectable stat in this farce is the 6/3 difference when the German dumbs attack (in favour of Ivan rambo) but i can't post more screenshots.
The same story appears in the combat logs showing the damage and suppression caused when these guys are under artillery fire. It seems the 5 star veterans can't stand up to enemy shelling any better than their schoolboy replacements.
I'd already changed my troop CD values before i started DLC 41 but iv'e been a little bit cautious to alter the exp settings as i don't really understand the relative and absolute parameters. Also as tanks already get a fairly decent bonus already from there stars it might make them even stronger. Experience should have an effect (and affect all units equally) but as the images show, a no star green recruit performs just as well as any battle hardened veteran. The actual combat results often show the expert soldiers getting slaughtered and there's truly no point in getting elite replacements to bring them back up to strength, its a waste of prestige for the infantry.
In most combat accounts you read (written by the guys who survived) its mentioned that the new recruits were much more susceptible to losses in combat and were often paralysed with fear when subjected to heavy artillery barrages. It would be nice if this was represented in the game.
First, a quick explanation of the experience parameters.
The absolute parameter means how much a stat can grow by in terms of integers for each star. The relative parameter means how much a stat can grow by in terms of % of the base value of the stat for each star. The best way to explain is with some examples.
Example 1
AttackExpBonusAbs=1
AttackExpBonusRel=10
2 star Wehrmacht infantry 43, unmodded SA = 6.
Abs: 2 stars = 2, so its SA should go up by 2.
Rel: 2 stars = 20%, so its SA should go up by 1.2.
The game takes the lower of these two numbers, 1.2, and rounds it down to the nearest integer, so the effective SA is 6 +1 = 7.
3 star Tiger Tank, unmodded HA = 17.
Abs: 3 stars = 3, so its HA should go up by 3.
Rel: 3 stars = 30%, so its HA should go up by 5.1.
The game takes the lower of these two numbers, 3 so the effective HA is 17 + 3 = 20.
3 star Wehrmacht infantry 43, unmodded SA = 6.
Abs: 3 stars = 3, so its SA should go up by 3.
Rel: 3 stars = 30%, so its SA should go up by 1.8.
The game takes the lower of these two numbers, 1.8, and rounds it down to the nearest integer, so the effective SA is still 6 +1 = 7.
Example 2
AttackExpBonusAbs=1
AttackExpBonusRel=100
4 star Wehrmacht infantry 43, unmodded SA = 6.
Abs: 4 stars = + 4 SA
Rel: 4 stars = 400%, so its SA should go up by 24.
The game takes the lower of these two numbers, 4, and rounds it down to the nearest integer, so the effective SA is 6 +4 = 10.
Example 3
AttackExpBonusAbs=2
AttackExpBonusRel=10
3 star Tiger Tank, unmodded HA = 17.
Abs: 3 stars = 6, so its HA should go up by 6.
Rel: 3 stars = 30%, so its HA should go up by 5.1.
The game takes the lower of these two numbers, so the effective HA = 17 +5 = 22.
I hope these examples illustrate how the system works. Now, after extensive testing, I've found that AttackExpBonusRel=DefenseExpBonusRel=17 is a good compromise between buffing the effect of experience on weak units while not making experience too overpowering. The magic number for attack or defense in this case is 6. At 6, each star gives you one more stat point, so a Guards 43 with 3 stars would have 9 SA and 9 HA, making it a very dangerous foe.
At 2 stars, the relative bonus is 34, so a unit with a stat of 3-5 would gain an additional point. The CD of all 43 infantry is 4 or higher, so at 2 stars, all infantry gains an additional CD, which is useful.
At 3 stars, the relative bonus is 51. For a stat value of 4, that would give two additional points.
A comparison between my mod and the base game.
My mod:
0 star Wehrmacht Infantry 43 has SA = 5, HA = 4, GD = 10, CD = 4.
3 star Wehrmacht Infantry 43 has SA = 7, HA = 6, GD = 13, CD = 6.
Base game:
0 star Wehrmacht Infantry 43 has SA = 6, HA = 6, GD = 8, CD = 2.
3 star Wehrmacht Infantry 43 has SA = 7, HA = 7, GD = 10, CD = 2.
Clearly in my mod, infantry benefits quite a bit more from experience, especially when it comes to combat in close terrain. Since I didn't adjust the absolute values for attack or defense, tanks get the same benefits as in the base game, as their attack and defense stats are mostly all greater than 10 anyway. The exception is the SA value for tanks, which is slightly better in my mod for experienced tanks, but should not be a problem considering I buffed the GD of infantry.
Very nice explanation, but I think that the boosted impact of experience is leading right to rarely damaged units being the best bang for buck. You basically only need to spend the prestige once to improve their value more or less permanently while the units at the frontlines (infantry, tanks and fighters) need to be reinforced constantly to keep those values.
Maybe artillery and bombers should be even more expensive in your mod.
charonjr wrote:Very nice explanation, but I think that the boosted impact of experience is leading right to rarely damaged units being the best bang for buck. You basically only need to spend the prestige once to improve their value more or less permanently while the units at the frontlines (infantry, tanks and fighters) need to be reinforced constantly to keep those values.
Maybe artillery and bombers should be even more expensive in your mod.
Rarely damaged units will always be the best bang for your buck just because you don't have to pay for them to be overstrengthed all the time. But remember if someone does get at your artillery and bombers they will do a lot more damge to them which means you are going to be paying a lot to get them back to where you want them.
deducter wrote:First, a quick explanation of the experience parameters.
The absolute parameter means how much a stat can grow by in terms of integers for each star. The relative parameter means how much a stat can grow by in terms of % of the base value of the stat for each star. The best way to explain is with some examples.
Deducter - maybe you could make some "school" video, that would explain how the game's mechanics work, like you do with you DLC AAR's?
If it comes to the tactics, I've always prefered to learn it the hard way, from my own mistakes. But I don't have enough patience to go through all the game's mechanics, unit parameters etc. I know from my gaming experience how should I play, but I don't really know why the things work the way they do. Some theory on this would be nice
Maybe you could start some video Panzer Corps Academy? You can already find on the youtube the lectures of the best and most famous universities, so maybe it's time to go ahead with that kind of project?
Wow, I haven't got to the point where my units have five stars so I'm surprised by how little the experience adds.
However am I wrong in assuming that those numbers given are a estimate of the outcome of the action? I thought it works on a "roll of the dice" action to determine the results with experience giving you a possible edge. IMO it would make the game less interesting to be assured a devastating victory every time you attack a unit with less experience than your unit. Even in the real world advanced and experienced military units have a bad luck moment and pay dearly for it against poorly trained and inexperienced adversaries. Am I wrong?
Wow, I haven't got to the point where my units have five stars so I'm surprised by how little the experience adds.
However am I wrong in assuming that those numbers given are a estimate of the outcome of the action? I thought it works on a "roll of the dice" action to determine the results with experience giving you a possible edge. IMO it would make the game less interesting to be assured a devastating victory every time you attack a unit with less experience than your unit. Even in the real world advanced and experienced military units have a bad luck moment and pay dearly for it against poorly trained and inexperienced adversaries. Am I wrong?
The actual combat results vary wildly for the troops and from what i can tell the most important factor by far in these sort of combats is the roll of the dice. Five stars to nil is an extreme example but you can easily see how 2 or 3 stars to 0 would have absolutely no bearing on results the dice throws up. So spending money on elite troops is a dubious investment to say the least. It works a bit differently for tanks with the five star AVF's generally achieving a much better spread in results against their no star opponents, experience does have an influence there.
As for real the world, battles often go wrong for many reasons but i think most generals would feel easier having an infantry division with a proven track record and combat experience holding a sector than some untried and untested raw recruit's who he's never seen before.
Never mentioned anything about wanting assured devastating victories for experienced troops.
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