On Soviet and German tanks

[ivanov]

It is an off topic and the concern of it is more for the future 44' and 45' DLC's, but i'd like to point something out, before it's too late;)

It's about the combat performance of the newer Soviet tanks ( KV-85 and JS-1 ) which are already present in the last few scenarios of the 43 DLC. In general my impression is, that the KV-85 decisively outclasses Panzers IV H and is moreless as good as the Panther.


The JS-1 can rip through the Panzer IVH like a hot knife through the butter:



And is somewhat as good as the Tiger:



My main concern is, that when in the future DLC's, the JS-1's and then JS-2's will replace the current KV's ( which are quite overrepresented right now IMO ), then the only solution for the players will be equipping their cores with Tigers II, Jagdpanthers and Jagdtigers... I personaly wouldn't like it to happen and hope to be able to build my future cores somewhere along the historical lines.

So here is my suggestion for the Soviet tank forces AD 44' and 45':

- 70% T-34/43 and T-34/85, where the later's performance should be comparable to the Panzers IV H ( slightly better armour and slightly worst hard attack, similar initiative )

- 15% JS-1 and JS-2

- 15% Assault guns


It seems to me, that in the last few scenarios of the DLC 43, the KV's and JS's make up for at least 50% of all soviet tanks. If in some future they will be replaced by the JS-2's, then inevitably the players will need to use proportionately more of the best German tanks.

I like a lot to see the Soviets growing stronger and stronger throught the DLC's, but I would also like to be able to maintain a historical balance on the battlefield if such a is my wish. Due to that, I hope that even in 1945 my old Panzer's IVH will be able to take on the T34/85 and my Panters and Tigers on JS-2's.

[deducter]

I posted at length about this concern, about how the game cannot be balanced for both a historic core and a power gamer core of all heavy armor. I can't remember which thread it was, but Kerensky posted that he planned to make the T-34 the main Russian tank for 1944 and 1945.

[monkspider]

Well said Ivanov, I had SERIOUS concerns about the amount of IS-1s in the Kiev '43 scenario. I think IS-1s and KV-85s were both units that were used rather infrequently during the war, I would strongly recommend replacing some of these with T-34s. Since the prestige levels we are seeing seems to be encouraging a more historical core (which is something I can get behind), we have to hold the Red Army to the same standards.

[ivanov]

Kerensky posted that he planned to make the T-34 the main Russian tank for 1944 and 1945.

Let's hope so! But in order to achieve it, the poliferation of the T-34's will actually need to increase from the current levels in order to achieve the 7:1 or maybe 8:1 ratio between the T-34's and JS-2's. Lets not forget that only about 3800-4000 "Stalins 2" were build, and they were formed into independend heavy tank regiments, what resembles IMO the general concept of Tigers organized into independent schwere panzer abteilungen.

[ivanov]

Since the prestige levels we are seeing seems to be encouraging a more historical core (which is something I can get behind), we have to hold the Red Army to the same standards.

Exactly right

[charonjr]

Actually from what I have seen the prestige levels seem to give an incentive to use unhistorical cores Since only the heavy tanks are having enough defense to allow prestige savings in the long run.

[Kerensky]

I was about to comment... until I noticed the JS-1 here is a special elite unit with a named commander. Lt. Prihodtzev.
In that screenshot, I see 1 KV85 and 1 extra special elite JS-1, out of a total of 11 armored units. The KV-85 and JS-1 don't even show up until after Kursk. I have a hard time seeing how that constitutes the 50% you said you feel.

I'll see about the JS-1 spam that shows up in Kiev43 though, that's not quite intentional.

[ivanov]

I was about to comment... until I noticed the JS-1 here is a special elite unit with a named commander. Lt. Prihodtzev.
In that screenshot, I see 1 KV85 and 1 extra special elite JS-1, out of a total of 11 armored units. The KV-85 and JS-1 don't even show up until after Kursk. I have a hard time seeing how that constitutes the 50% you said you feel.

I'll see about the JS-1 spam that shows up in Kiev43 though, that's not quite intentional.

I meant that the KV's of all the types + JS1 already make up for 50% of all the Soviet tanks. If all of them would be replaced in the future DLC's by the JS-2 ( I don't expect to see many KV-1's in 1944-45 ), then the T-34 / JS2 ratio would be quite strange and ahistorical.

But as I said, it's an off topic and the concern is more for the future. I haven't played the Kiev 43 yet, but I will certainly report if I observe any anomalities in the in the JS-1 numbers.

[Kerensky]

Also

Other than a slight hiccup with the Armory scenarios where too many Soviet Aircraft are present, I don't plan to tweak Soviet strength values.

One of the worst offenses committed in the stock campaign was the overabundance of top tier Allied equipment (IS-2 and SU-100 spam) which forced the player, in turn, to only use top tier equipment in order to combat these opponents.

Even in DLC 1944 and DLC 1945, the premier Soviet tank will still be the T-34. It'll be a mix of T-34/43s and 85s at that point (like currently it is a mix of T-34/41s and 43s) but keeping these tanks around will allow our players to effectively use a good variety of equipment instead of being forced to only have King Tigers and Jagdpanthers.

For the players who play on Colonel mode and want only King Tigers and Jagdpanthers anyways, well that's entirely up to them because if they have fun doing that and crushing the AI with little or no effort, then they are entitled to have fun in that way.

So while some of our players have often wondered why old and outdated Soviet equipment keeps showing up (BT-7s, T60s, T70s, early model T-34s), this is the reason why.
These players with 100% top tier equipment that is elite and overstrength easily overruns these kinds of units. And that's fine, Panzer Corps and their DLC are a game, and bottom line the player is supposed to win in a game.

But at the highest difficulty settings, these outdated tanks with +5 strength are serious obstacles to battle, if you are using Panzer IIIs and IVs and not just Tiger spam.

I've said it before, but it's worth saying again. It's up to the player to decide which difficulty setting suits their definition of fun best.

Colonel difficulty is meant to be 'steamroll the AI no problem every time all the time' because that's what Panzer General has pretty much always been.

[charonjr]

I am at Kiew turn 10 atm and it looked like 3 IS-1 did just spawn unless there are 4 of them in a new wave, but it did look like a spawn to me.

[charonjr]

Just took another look at the turn 9 end save, 2 were already there and 2 fresh ones did spawn from Shevchenkove.

edit: And at the end of turn 10 another 5 of them spawned, time to move a unit next to Shevchenkove if I can somehow manage it

Did I mention that I am a little bit afraid now?

[monkspider]

Ha, thanks for tracking that down Charon! My suspicions were correct.

[Kerensky]

Out of curiosity, is that really that big a problem?
This behavior only occurs when the AI is down to less than 20 total units, which means they are pretty much at the end of their rope (scenarios in DLC 1943 have anywhere between 100 and 190 pre-placed and pre-configured units).
It would be nice if the AI liked to purchase a better variety, but the way scenarios are configured now, this only happens at the very end of a scenario, where in the stock campaign this sort of thing was regular behavior from the start.

[charonjr]

Well, if this continues at the current pace it WILL be a problem Will report what happens on the next turn.

[charonjr]

Killed them off via cheats and at the next turn another 2 IS-1s and 2 BA-10s spawned, looks like the AI is running out of prestige now, but 9 spawning IS-1 does look a bit much to me.

Personally I have saved up about 6k prestige at this point so I can afford to retreat and reinforce and deal with them - in addition I should be able to put 2 units right next to the town anyway (but only due to clear weather on this turn, should be rain on the next one). If the same happens to people under less favorable conditions those IS-1s should be able to deal a lot of damage. And while I dont know how much prestige the AI is getting each turn something similar - but on a lesser scale - might happen again afterwards.

Setting the respawn to only include a certain number/percentage of very heavy tanks is more realistic, too (no idea if this can be actually done).

edit: Managed to kill 3 and due to the AI behaviour the other 4 were less of a problem than I thought, 2 of them simply headed west without firing at my tanks (no idea what causes this, but I have seen this quite a number of times that the AI will ignore some of my units while attacking - at least to me - would have been the better option - it could move the units into their new positions after attacking my units).

[Longasc]

Disregarding the IS-2 phenomenon:

I didn't get far with few heavy tanks and many mediums. And even with lots of heavy tanks what happened was that the last Panzer IV died in Prokhorovka as the AI goes for the weaker tanks first. So it's now some StuGs and the rest mostly Tigers and 1-2 Panthers.

Maybe more cheap units are used by the very experienced players on Manstein, but in general for FM and lower levels the trend goes to a heavy tank core. Those can stand the Russian tank hordes better. Without them there are indeed a few Russian tanks like the KV-85/IS-2 that can easily destroy medium tanks an tank destroyers.

Right now I didn't experience TOO many of them. Weaker tanks were still the norm. But the trend for my core is that I have no more Panzer IV. Well we are in 1943 but the era of the medium tank seems to be already over. Not sure how to handle this. Give people more Prestige and you have tons of Tigers, give them no Prestige and they can't replace their presumably even higher strength point losses.

[Zhivago]

Funny how opinions have changed in just a week. In my post last week "Prestige Crunch" I was chided by players like Deducter and Longasc for "pimping" my core with Tigers and Panthers and FW190's. Now it seems that most of these same people have finally seen the light that unless you have this heavy armor, you are not going to get very far. Sorry, a Panzer III or IV is no match for the steady diet of SU-152's, KV-85's and IS-1's, etc., that you face in ever increasing numbers as DLC 43 goes on. Still, I have no problem with the units and scenarios as is. I like the challenge of hordes of Soviet armor.

[deducter]

Funny how opinions have changed in just a week. In my post last week "Prestige Crunch" I was chided by players like Deducter and Longasc for "pimping" my core with Tigers and Panthers and FW190's. Now it seems that most of these same people have finally seen the light that unless you have this heavy armor, you are not going to get very far. Sorry, a Panzer III or IV is no match for the steady diet of SU-152's, KV-85's and IS-1's, etc., that you face in ever increasing numbers as DLC 43 goes on. Still, I have no problem with the units and scenarios as is. I like the challenge of hordes of Soviet armor.

Really? I'll take that as a challenge. If I played on FM with the 43 core, I am confident I would win DV on every map with 2-3 Tigers and 2-3 Panthers. It might be possible on Rommel with the 43 core, I'm not sure, but if I used an imported/optimized core it should be doable. On Manstein I would need an imported core, and the number of Panthers/Tigers might need to be higher by a bit. Surely Kerensky knows whether it is doable.

The thing is, I won't attack KV-85s or IS-1s with my PzIII and PzIV. The few Tigers/Panthers I have will deal with those units. Or I'll lure them into close terrain and crush them with infantry. Or I'll lure them onto Rivers and crush them with armor. Or I'll force surrenders. There are a lot of tricks.

I have not changed my intention to play with a historic core, but I accept that other players are free with play with whatever settings they want.

[Longasc]

I would prefer if you focus on the topic and don't make references to you getting butthurt by me, deducter or anyone else in the past.

[ivanov]

And we are returning swiftly to the subject of the thread! Another test - this time from the beginning of the Kiev scenario:



As we see, the JS-1 is almost an equal opponent to the Tiger. Note that the German tank has a slight advantage in the experiance and a hero that increases it's defence value by +1. That means that the JS-2 will be probably equal to the Panzer VI. As to the Soviet tanks being spawned after the AI forces drops to below 20 - wouldn't it be better if it spawned T34/43's instead of JS-1's ?