Need help with Vyazma scenario.........

[Jonesy1760]

I cant seem to win the Vyazma scenario.....Can someone give me some strategy tips to winning this one.
Thanks.

[VPaulus]

Take a look at deducter's AAR:
viewtopic.php?t=30577

[brettz123]

What exactly is the problem you are having? And what does your CORE look like?

[charonjr]

Yes, the CORE would be important.

Personally (only at turn 6 atm, but already have about 50% of the Soviet VPs and destroyed a fairly large number of reserve units for new waves) I play like I always do.

I use my fairly large number of artillery pieces and Stukas for putting as much lead/steel in the air as possible ("Stahlgewitter" - no idea if there is a real translation for that one, but roughly steel tempest/thunderstorm). My 21cm and the Stukas are mainly focusing on the Soviet armor/artillery. In addition I always try to gang up on a single enemy unit and destroy one rather than just damaging 2-3.

Once the first wave is destroyed I have build 3 mobile Kampfgruppen and started to hunt for the Soviet staging areas using the same tactics as before. It is important to scout ahead (I tend to mainly use my fighters/fighter-bomber if there are no enemy planes around) and when you meet heavy resistance fall back towards the center where I tend to keep a small mobile reserve. When one of my units does run into trouble (often I dont have enough fighters to recon everything or the weather is bad - so essentially you will get into trouble sooner or later) I try to form a defensive line around it and weather the initial assault and retreat afterwards.

CharonJr

edit: Dang, got confused here with Vitebsk - so forget the part about me already having those VPs and the 3 Kampfgruppen, but the general tactic stays the same.

[brettz123]

Without seeing your CORE this is some generic information. I play on field marshall so this may not apply if you play on Manstein, Guderian, or Rommel. But anyway here it goes.

1. I come to this with 8 towed artillery pieces and 2 Wurfrahmen 40.

2. I bring 5 infnatry to this one (2 SE, 2 Pioniere, and a Gebirgs).

3. I think I deployed 2 or 3 Stukas and 4 or 5 109s.

4. The rest end up being tanks. This is my 2 SE tanks, 1 T-34, 1 KV-1, 2 Chars, 1 Matilda and the rest of my units are PZ-IVD.

This is one of those scenarios where you can get some good use from your matilda because you don't need to go far to have some good fighting. You want to have two main battle groups. One north of Vyazma and one south of vyazma. Weather can be a pain in the rear in this one but shouldn't be too bad. Last time I played through I had six turns of mud. Your northern force will run into a large tank and infantry counterattack as soon as you get to the entrenched infantry units. Use your stukas to take thise guys down a peg or two. Once they are defeated you have a clear road to the farthest objectives.

[Kerensky]

When I find myself getting seriously bogged down on this scenario, I bust out with the Fallschirmjägers to reach the final objectives. Their air transports are immune to mud.

[deducter]

The best bet I found is to use half-track/tracked vehicles in your northern pincer, and send 8 or so units ahead towards Moscow. If needed, use your air units to focus on attacking towards Moscow. The half-tracked vehicles do okay in muddy terrain. Your southern pincer can focus on tanking Vyazma. You should aim to take both Moscow and Vyazma on or near the same turn.

[Jonesy1760]

{2} 10 pt. grenadier Inf.
{2} 10 pt. Bruckenpionere Inf.
1 10 pt.SE Inf.
1 10 pt. Gebirgsjager
1 10 pt. Pz IIIF
1 10pt. Pz III H
1 10pt. Pz IVD
1 10pt.Pz IV F
1 10pt SE Pz IIIJ
1 10pt. Captured T34/40
1 12 pt. Sturmpanzer I
{3} 10 pt.Sturmpanzer I
{2} 10 pt. Wurfrahmen 40
1 10 pt. SdKrz 7/1 Flak
{4] 10 pt.Me-109 E
{4} 10 pt. Stuka
1 10 pt. Me-110D
The Inf and Tanks have a few stars and awards but thr Warbirds are mostly aces with many stars each

[charonjr]

Hmm, do you lack the prestige for overstrength units?

Personally I would switch out at least 1 Bf 109 and 1 Brückenpioniere for 2 heavy towed artillery pieces. And with all those fortifications Pioniere would be better than Grenadiere IMO.

From the mix of different upgrade levels on those tanks and the low number of overstrength units I feel that maybe you lack the prestige for a hugely different core force. If this is the case simply barging your way through the center by brute force and using fairly light mobile forces on both flanks (my prefered "tactic") is out the question. You have to use the flanks.

I think that I would ignore the northernmost (non essential) objectives at first and only send some mobile forces there once the bulk of your forces reaches Moscow/Vyazma.

I would form a larger southern force and split it up around Yukhnow with a part heading towards Vyazma and the other part keeps heading towards Moscow (some of them via Kaluga).

Once Vyazma - after being attacked from the flanks - falls I would send the bulk of those forces towards Moscow, too, with the some armor + Sturmpanzer heading for the NW objectives.

Roughly something like this:



The problem is that I have no idea if you will face any counterattacks from the NW if you ignore those objectives at first.

What is actually happing that makes you lose? There might be some things we are still missing here.

CharonJr

[Jonesy1760]

I have 1266 points left over to play with

[Locarnus]

From the numbers it seems that you do not use all deployment slots, your core appears to be fairly small, especially considering that you have SE units.

From your list you have 28 units, including 2 SE.
So you can use 26 deployment slots maximum, the scenario limit is afair much higher, so you need to boost your core.

Some remarks about your core:
Inf
1. No Pioniere! Pioniere are essential units to avoid casualties while attacking entrenched units and fortifications!
2. 2 Brückenpioniere are 1 too many, as charonjr already said.
3. 6 Inf total could be expanded, especially since Brückenpioniere are not a fighting unit.
4. Did I mention that you dont have Pioniere?

Tanks
1. 6 Tanks total seems way too low for that point in the campaign. Do you have high tank unit losses or did you not expand the tank force?
2. Also only 1 captured tank is very low. There is a thread somewhere here where the capturable tanks are listed.
3. Most of your tanks are not the latest version, did you not upgrade because of roleplaying reasons?

Arty
1. 6 Arty is ok, but more would be better, imho.
2. Your concentration on Sturmpanzer and Wurfrahmen40 means, that you only have 4 ammo each, considering that you have to resupply when at 1 ammo, in order to allow coverfire, you must resupply after 3 shots.

Airforce
1. Size looks ok, except for point 2.
2. You do not have level bombers, at least 1 should be there to help arty.

Other
1. The AA should be a 88Flak36, especially against those russian tanks and fortifications.
2. No Recon?


Priorities
1. Use all your deployment slots!
2. You do not have units to deal with entrenched infantry (Pioniere).
3. Your arty is inefficient, because it needs to reload too often, high ammo arty is the answer (eg 17cm towed or StugIIIB - the Stug best with a hero giving range bonus).
4. Your tank force is not large enough for all this soviet armor and to reliably shield advancing mounted infantry. Capturing soviet armor is a good way to expand it.
5. You do not have units which can deal with fortifications (Pioniere, 88Flak36).
6. You have no anti-tank weapon which can deal with superior soviet tanks (88Flak36).


Short term solutions
1. Change 1 Brückenpioniere to Pioniere (so it keeps the experience and vehicle).
2. Buy 1 additional Pioniere.
3. Upgrade your tanks to the latest "in line" model (dont switch from Pz III to Pz IV), if you do not have roleplay reasons for doing otherwise.
4. Buy 1 towed 17cm arty.
5. Expand your tank force (best by capturing tanks) and convert your flak into towed 88Flak36.

Then look at the priorities list again.

[deducter]

Everyone loves pionieres. I seem to be in the minority to not employ too many of them. I usually have 1, maybe 2 for my Manstein core. Otherwise I still use a mix of grenadiers, mounted Fallschirmsjager, even regular Wehrmacht infantry.

I agree being able to avoid rugged defense and not suffering entrenchment bonuses can be useful, but I always have artillery before attacking entrenched positions anyway. There are many more instances where the +1 initiative on the grenadier or the +1 move on the other infantry are much more useful.

[Locarnus]

Ok, but no Pioniere at all and no 88 in combination is really a problem (also because of fortifications).

[Jonesy1760]

I added Pioneers,more 88s, more tanks and upgraded them,added 17cm arty!!!
Still cant take the city....To many russian T34s and KV tanks

[charonjr]

Are you able to take the trenches infront of Moscow, or do the tanks beat you even earlier?

If you do get to the trenches, how many turns are left at this point?

If you can not force your way directly into the city hexes the northernmost bridge is often the most easy to secure and put additional pressure from up there, too.

The only general tip about fighting tanks is to start suppressing them by artillery (mainly 17cm, Sturmpanzer if you have to), then follow up with Stukas (should do between 1-3 damage) and only then start to directly attack them - with infantry in bad terrain and the 88/IIIJs in open terrain. If you are able to force a tank to retreat repeat the process. And remember that it is always better to take out 1 tank then damage 3 of them, so try to bring as much firepower to bear on a single tank as possible.

I have no idea if the forum does support this, but can you post the savegame? I would like to give that one a shot myself.

CharonJr