early tercio in early tyw german catholics - any use?

[footslogger]

These units seem awfully expensive and fall on that unfortunate break where they don't count as a GBG. Anyone tried using them? Results to report?

[Blathergut]

Deadtorius has been running Tilly's veterans every game. They take a horrendous beating before ever breaking. I've managed a couple times to overwhelm flanks with horse but then have had nowhere to go since all that was near was those cursed ETs. Hitting one with two Swedish brigades has killed one a couple times, but it came down to whoever lost the next base broke. They are almost impossible to beat with the little 6pak pike and shotte units.

[footslogger]

Deadtorius has been running Tilly's veterans every game. They take a horrendous beating before ever breaking. I've managed a couple times to overwhelm flanks with horse but then have had nowhere to go since all that was near was those cursed ETs. Hitting one with two Swedish brigades has killed one a couple times, but it came down to whoever lost the next base broke. They are almost impossible to beat with the little 6pak pike and shotte units.

Thanks for the report. For Till's veterans at 120 points though, that's 2.5 6pak p&s units. Maybe worth toying around with I guess.

[deadtorius]

I used all of Tilly's vets in todays game, and it was well worth the points, final score 18-0, the Protestants were sent scattering and the true faith gets to wrack up another point on the tercio's of death score card.

Like any other units if you are rolling lucky and I was on death rolls the tercio can take a major pounding, pretty much hard to force them to test, and even then they get +1 for self support, add in a general and likely you are rolling even. They can take a major pounding and almost (key word is almost) never take a cohesion test from shooting. Although Blathergut shot one with almost 1/4 of his army and caused 6 hits the second time one was forced to take cohesion from shooting and it also actually lost a base. I used them very aggressively this time out and it paid off as they rolled across his army smashing most any enemy they met. If you are fighting Swedes try to turn them so they can hit with minimum bases and you can survive impact quite well.

I have been running them for over a half year now and must say they are expensive but very tough, throw the superiors in the middle and keep the average on the sides letting the superiors run in and take the major pounding and with enough luck you will blitz your enemy and return the Pope to his former glory. One thing to keep in mind is that there is little room behind them (in 28mm anyway) so don't think about deploying in depth you can't. Also their large frontage makes them somewhat vulnerable to enemy P&S units as you can easily find yourself getting charged by 2 of them and splitting your dice so hold some of them back for later deployment and try to keep their positioning in mind. The table can get pretty crowded so watch your light horse and dragoons or they will get caught out front and either have to stand and get destroyed or risk disrupting whats out back. I prefer to keep mine on the flank where there is more room.

My best advice is to give them a run and see if they work for you, they certainly have worked well for me

Tilltorius (any chance I can change my name?? )

[Blathergut]

Today was just a nightmare! Not a single point scored against you. OOiiii!!!

[Blathergut]

The 6paks are fine if you can get two onto one tercio; lots of firepower hitting it if it results in base(s) loss. The problem there is the 'if.' If your fire doesn't cause 2 or 3 base losses on the way in, and you probably have taken a base loss or two on each of the 6paks, you are doomed in combat because the tercio can absorb the losses while the 6paks will break. Yes, I can have a 3rd in behind, but that has rarely helped.

The swedish brigades stand a chance, but only marginally better and more expensive. The best are probably the Later German 6paks with regimental guns to maximize firepower on the tercio beasts.

[timmy1]

Have you tried fortifications with Heavy or Medium Artillery behind? Combined with dragoons / LH to channel/slow the Tercios, that might work.

[Blathergut]

Have you tried fortifications with Heavy or Medium Artillery behind? Combined with dragoons / LH to channel/slow the Tercios, that might work.

Shhhhhh!

[Blathergut]

We might be calling in a French friend to join us too.

[deadtorius]

I have threatened to use earthworks to stop the dam Swedes, Blathergut kindly informs me he won't go near them. So far I have not bothered to make any.
I had a pile of them for my old 20mm DBR Dutch army, hid behind them every game, but I still lost a lot of games

[Blathergut]

Ah, my problem is fortifications and artillery behind them just isn't enjoyable as a game to me. I like to get into it instead. So as tempting as it is to place down 12 field fortifications and then 4 heavy arty and 2 med arty plus supporting 6paks, and then grind away at a couple superior tercios, it ain't gonna happen.

[deadtorius]

Not so certain I feel the same when it comes to facing swedes

[stecal]

Ah, my problem is fortifications and artillery behind them just isn't enjoyable as a game to me. I like to get into it instead. So as tempting as it is to place down 12 field fortifications and then 4 heavy arty and 2 med arty plus supporting 6paks, and then grind away at a couple superior tercios, it ain't gonna happen.

I've tried fortifications and they are very easy to avoid. Putting the guns behind fortifications mean you cannot pivot them either. Guns & fortifcations are more useful as an area denial weapon.

[Niceas]

Ah, my problem is fortifications and artillery behind them just isn't enjoyable as a game to me. I like to get into it instead. So as tempting as it is to place down 12 field fortifications and then 4 heavy arty and 2 med arty plus supporting 6paks, and then grind away at a couple superior tercios, it ain't gonna happen.

I've tried fortifications and they are very easy to avoid. Putting the guns behind fortifications mean you cannot pivot them either. Guns & fortifcations are more useful as an area denial weapon.

This is true enough. That big Ottoman artillery park can be avoided, even with 4 Tercios as I demonstrated last game.

And to echo the above, a superior Tercio can take a lot of punishment, and ramming the things down your opponent's army's throat is probably the best use of them.

[deadtorius]

I kept one on the left flank as an anchor to keep the enemy cav at bay, the rest motored forwards double moving as often as was possible and they did ram their way down the Protestants throats. Not much subtlety in that one just run straight in and mix it up. Of course it helped a whole lot that I surprisingly made every death roll on the way in. Blathergut was rolling hot with his artillery, 1 or 2 hits per turn as I rolled across the table, but to no avail. Wish I could roll like that in every game

when you are lucky it really hurts your opponent.

One of these days I might try some FF's see if they can work or not.

[Niceas]

I kept one on the left flank as an anchor to keep the enemy cav at bay, the rest motored forwards double moving as often as was possible and they did ram their way down the Protestants throats. Not much subtlety in that one just run straight in and mix it up. Of course it helped a whole lot that I surprisingly made every death roll on the way in. Blathergut was rolling hot with his artillery, 1 or 2 hits per turn as I rolled across the table, but to no avail. Wish I could roll like that in every game

when you are lucky it really hurts your opponent.

One of these days I might try some FF's see if they can work or not.

I've tried FF with both Burgundians in FoG:AM and Venetians in FoG:R. They were marginally useful with the Burgundians, and should have been with the Venetians, but were worse than useless. I think I really have to rethink the Venetian list.

Probably depends on the army.

[stecal]

I kept one on the left flank as an anchor to keep the enemy cav at bay, the rest motored forwards double moving as often as was possible and they did ram their way down the Protestants throats. Not much subtlety in that one just run straight in and mix it up. Of course it helped a whole lot that I surprisingly made every death roll on the way in. Blathergut was rolling hot with his artillery, 1 or 2 hits per turn as I rolled across the table, but to no avail. Wish I could roll like that in every game

when you are lucky it really hurts your opponent.

One of these days I might try some FF's see if they can work or not.

I've tried FF with both Burgundians in FoG:AM and Venetians in FoG:R. They were marginally useful with the Burgundians, and should have been with the Venetians, but were worse than useless. I think I really have to rethink the Venetian list.

Probably depends on the army.

I think "armies of average" like Burgundians & Venetians would benefit hugely from a Great Commander giving them +2 vs shooting CTs. A GC also means you will likely win initiatiative and can put down a river or coastline to protect one flank of your fortification line and also deploy last -- those guns dont have to go behind the fortifications, which can serve as a bluff and instead put some av or poor shooters there.

[Niceas]

I kept one on the left flank as an anchor to keep the enemy cav at bay, the rest motored forwards double moving as often as was possible and they did ram their way down the Protestants throats. Not much subtlety in that one just run straight in and mix it up. Of course it helped a whole lot that I surprisingly made every death roll on the way in. Blathergut was rolling hot with his artillery, 1 or 2 hits per turn as I rolled across the table, but to no avail. Wish I could roll like that in every game

when you are lucky it really hurts your opponent.

One of these days I might try some FF's see if they can work or not.

I've tried FF with both Burgundians in FoG:AM and Venetians in FoG:R. They were marginally useful with the Burgundians, and should have been with the Venetians, but were worse than useless. I think I really have to rethink the Venetian list.

Probably depends on the army.

I think "armies of average" like Burgundians & Venetians would benefit hugely from a Great Commander giving them +2 vs shooting CTs. A GC also means you will likely win initiatiative and can put down a river or coastline to protect one flank of your fortification line and also deploy last -- those guns dont have to go behind the fortifications, which can serve as a bluff and instead put some av or poor shooters there.

Certainly worth a try.

[deadtorius]

perhaps you need to run them so they anchor on impassible or arch around a bit to make a solid bent line so your opponent has a harder time to get around them. I think it would be very different in 15mm than the 28mm we play. We can fill almost a solid line on a 4x8 table with just our troops, not much wiggle room when we get up to or over 1000 points. our normal game is around 800 gives a bit of room.

[Niceas]

perhaps you need to run them so they anchor on impassible or arch around a bit to make a solid bent line so your opponent has a harder time to get around them. I think it would be very different in 15mm than the 28mm we play. We can fill almost a solid line on a 4x8 table with just our troops, not much wiggle room when we get up to or over 1000 points. our normal game is around 800 gives a bit of room.

25mm is a completely different game from 15mm. Completely.