early tyw field signs?

[footslogger]

I'm starting to work on early thirty years war figures in 28mm. I'm wondering about what sort of field signs they would have worn, and in what colors?

[deadtorius]

from what I have read, red for catholic, Orange for Protestant.
Not sure but its possible the Imperials may have started the green leaves like their later Austrian cousins cousins carried on with.
Officers sashes aside not really sure how many field signs there might have been.

[DanielS]

The colours of the field signs varied somewhat over the years, nor are the field signs of all armies well document which together with 19th C and early 20th C myths (such as the Swedes using blue field signs) makes it a bit of a complex subject.

The Imperial and Spanish armies used their traditional colour, red, as a field sign for the duration of the war. From May 1632 red was supposed to be the mandatory field sign colour for all troops fighting for the Emperor including allies.

The Catholic Leauge (Tilly's army other than any Imperial troops attached) used blue field signs up to at least 1632. Their use of blue was one of the reasons the Swedes did not use the colour.

The army of Christian IV of Denmark used sashes that were blue & "flame yellow" (i.e a reddish yellow) tied together with a knot in white from late 1625. The Danish fieldsign colour was originaly blue (from at least 1621) and the yellow part and white knot were added to distinguish them from Tilly's men. Furthermore all feathers were to be white.

The Swedes are a bit difficult due to the lack of hard evidence, there circumstancial evidence such as their use of green foilage together with other sources does seem to indicate that green was probably the colour used in Gustavus time. Brzezinski has a good section on the Swedish fieldsigns in the Osprey on Gustavus Army. What can be said is that they did not use blue since the Danes & Leaugists were already using that colour.

I've never seen orange fieldsigns used by anyone but the Dutch in the sources.


Field signs could be everything for the rich silk sashes worn by senior officers to scraps of cloth or paper worn on the hat or around the arm. In theory officers and the cavalry used sashes and feathers as field signs while the infantry had to make do with simpler stuff such as painted linen cloth, paper or even foilage. Field signs were most important for the Cavalry since they were the ones who got most badly mixed up with the enemy in a fight. "Friendly fire" was a very real risk in the 17th Century as well, a good example is the battle of Honigfelde 1629 where the Polish cavalry were unable to distinguish between German cavalry in Swedish service and their Imperial allies in the confusion of the melee and started to hack away at both sides. The Imperial troops started shouting "Jesu Maria!" and "Kaiser!" which halted the Polish assault but it did create a lot of bad blood between the two forces.

[footslogger]

Thanks Daniel.

I'm narrowing my choice of armies to start with to very early German protestants. It seems little is known about what this army looked like. I guess as long as I don't choose red for what field signs there might be, I'll be ok? I'm thinking about using white.

[deadtorius]

I suggest you take blue and then run Tilly's boys, much more fun than the boring old Protestants. Early tercios, how can you possibly pass those up???

[DanielS]

The "Early Protestants" are a fairly large number of diffrent armies rolled into one army list. Because several of them were short lived and other were almost nomadic in their existence they have not left behind as much in the way of documents as the Bavarians (Leuagists) or Imperials. You have
Bohemians
Mansfeld's various armies (at least 2-3 diffrent armies were led by Mansfeld)
The Margrave of Baden-Durlachs army (Only existed in 1622 but an interesting force though the army list does not include his special units)
The "Mad Halberstadter" Christian of Braunschweig-Lüneburg raised his own army which was active in 1622-1623
The short lived Silesian army raised for Christian IV of Denmark
The Saxon army, gets a bad reputation because of the rout at Breitenfeld but it was one of the largest and certainly the best equipped early German army raised by the Protestants. Also very well documented for a TYW army, it will be very interesting to see just what will be included in the huge study of the army during the TYW that Leipzig University will Publish this year.

The colour which is most often reported for the German protestants is yellow, a colour used as early as the Schmalkaldic War of the 1540's, secondary sources reference it's use by both the Saxons as well as Mansfeld's men. A 1620 portrait of Christian of Braunschweig-Lüneburg shows him with a yellow sash as well http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... neburg.jpg

[nikgaukroger]

The Margrave of Baden-Durlachs army (Only existed in 1622 but an interesting force though the army list does not include his special units)

Care to elaborate, sounds interesting

[DanielS]

Based on the ideas of Johann von Nassau-Siegen (part of the team of reformers who worked with Maurice of Nassau) Georg Friedrich had added 70 "pike carts" to his army. Count Johann had first used such carts against the Poles in Livonia and had continued to tinker with the idea by improving the design and adding firepower in the shape of multiple "doppelhaken" (heavy calibre "wall guns") or a breach loading cannon designed to fire hail-shot.

Georg Friedrich mounted small "Poller"/"Böller" on his carts, these guns are often called "mortars" or even "hand mortars" when the archaic German gun name is translated but in this case the name probably is a bit misleading since the German word described the design of the gun rather than it's usage. Essentialy a gun with a large bore but a small powder chamber and cast with fairly thin barrel walls. The Swedes and Dutch employed similar designs to fire hail-shot or cannister shot when attacking or defending a breach or in naval warfare.

Light enough to be pulled by a single horse the "pike carts" were intended to allow Georg Friedrich to protect his infantry with an "instant" wagenburg when combined with the ordinary wagons of his army. Any close assault would in theory face devastating firepower and then be disorganised as they tried to force a way into the wagenburg. Worked well to begin with in the battle of Wimpfen 1622 until a stray Catholic shot set of a massive explosion in the Markgraf's powder wagons located in the center of the Wagenburg.

[footslogger]

The "Early Protestants" are a fairly large number of diffrent armies rolled into one army list. Because several of them were short lived and other were almost nomadic in their existence they have not left behind as much in the way of documents as the Bavarians (Leuagists) or Imperials. You have
Bohemians
Mansfeld's various armies (at least 2-3 diffrent armies were led by Mansfeld)
The Margrave of Baden-Durlachs army (Only existed in 1622 but an interesting force though the army list does not include his special units)
The "Mad Halberstadter" Christian of Braunschweig-Lüneburg raised his own army which was active in 1622-1623
The short lived Silesian army raised for Christian IV of Denmark
The Saxon army, gets a bad reputation because of the rout at Breitenfeld but it was one of the largest and certainly the best equipped early German army raised by the Protestants. Also very well documented for a TYW army, it will be very interesting to see just what will be included in the huge study of the army during the TYW that Leipzig University will Publish this year.

The colour which is most often reported for the German protestants is yellow, a colour used as early as the Schmalkaldic War of the 1540's, secondary sources reference it's use by both the Saxons as well as Mansfeld's men. A 1620 portrait of Christian of Braunschweig-Lüneburg shows him with a yellow sash as well http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... neburg.jpg

I was thinking about Mansfield's armies - either the one during the Bohemian rebellion, or the one he lead in the early 1620s. Yellow, eh? I could probably do that.

[Sarmaticus]

The colour which is most often reported for the German protestants is yellow, a colour used as early as the Schmalkaldic War of the 1540's, secondary sources reference it's use by both the Saxons as well as Mansfeld's men. A 1620 portrait of Christian of Braunschweig-Lüneburg shows him with a yellow sash as well http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... neburg.jpg

Any idea why that colour was chosen. A Welf connection would work for the Brunswickers but not for the others.

[DanielS]

Mansfeld led the same army in Bohemia and in the campaigns up to his disbanding the army in 1623-1624. (Though with numerous changes due to losses and the addition of new troops)
With the main Bohemian army lost at White Mountain Mansfeld carried out a fighting withdrawal from Bohemia to the Upper Palatinate where he entreched himself in a strong position at Waidhausen while recruiting troops and negotating with the enemy at the same time. He successfully resisted Tilly's efforts to dislodge him but by 1622 he made the move to the "Lower Palatinate" on the Rhine which was under attack by the Spanish army. This set the stage for the extensive campaign of 1622 in a number of Protestant & Catholic armies manouvered and fought against each other from Westphalia to Alsace. In the end the Protestants were defeated and Mansfeld along with Christian of Brunswick had to fight his way to join with the Dutch. Once in nominal Dutch service Mansfeld was sent to occupy East Frisia were his position finaly became unsustainable and he was forced to disband his army.

Manfeld's army is often underrated due it's reputation for poor discipline and looting as well as it 'never' winning a major battle. In reality some parts, notably the cavalry proved effective troops and Mansfeld was the only Protestant commander other than Gustavus to defeat Tilly (At Weisloch in 1622) while his cavalry on it's own inflicted a shattering defeat on the army of Archduke Leopold (Imperial troops reinforced by Spanish troops from Italy and Burgundy).
And at both Wimpfen and Fleurus the cavalry performed decently though those battles were lost in the end. Officers and probably ordinary troopers as well from Mansfelds army later joined the armies of Christian IV of Denmark or Gustavus Adolphus in 1625-1626 and brought with them their hard won experience. Some that survived the Danish defeat joined the Swedes in 1628-1630 as did some that had not joined up in 1625-1626. So Mansfeld's army had an impact on the war beyond it being disbanded and Mansfeld himself having died.

[DanielS]

The colour which is most often reported for the German protestants is yellow, a colour used as early as the Schmalkaldic War of the 1540's, secondary sources reference it's use by both the Saxons as well as Mansfeld's men. A 1620 portrait of Christian of Braunschweig-Lüneburg shows him with a yellow sash as well http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... neburg.jpg

Any idea why that colour was chosen. A Welf connection would work for the Brunswickers but not for the others.

I'm not sure there was a strictly heraldic connection to the use of yelllow by the TYW. The origin seems to be the use of yellow in the Schmalkaldic war of 1546-1547 by Johann Friedrich of Saxony and his allies. That use of yellow probably had it's origin in the Wettin heraldry. As a result it seems to have become the colour connected with the Protestant Party in Germany much like the white colour was adopted as the field sign of the Huguenots in France.

[footslogger]

Mansfeld led the same army in Bohemia and in the campaigns up to his disbanding the army in 1623-1624. (Though with numerous changes due to losses and the addition of new troops)
With the main Bohemian army lost at White Mountain Mansfeld carried out a fighting withdrawal from Bohemia to the Upper Palatinate where he entreched himself in a strong position at Waidhausen while recruiting troops and negotating with the enemy at the same time. He successfully resisted Tilly's efforts to dislodge him but by 1622 he made the move to the "Lower Palatinate" on the Rhine which was under attack by the Spanish army. This set the stage for the extensive campaign of 1622 in a number of Protestant & Catholic armies manouvered and fought against each other from Westphalia to Alsace. In the end the Protestants were defeated and Mansfeld along with Christian of Brunswick had to fight his way to join with the Dutch. Once in nominal Dutch service Mansfeld was sent to occupy East Frisia were his position finaly became unsustainable and he was forced to disband his army.

Manfeld's army is often underrated due it's reputation for poor discipline and looting as well as it 'never' winning a major battle. In reality some parts, notably the cavalry proved effective troops and Mansfeld was the only Protestant commander other than Gustavus to defeat Tilly (At Weisloch in 1622) while his cavalry on it's own inflicted a shattering defeat on the army of Archduke Leopold (Imperial troops reinforced by Spanish troops from Italy and Burgundy).
And at both Wimpfen and Fleurus the cavalry performed decently though those battles were lost in the end. Officers and probably ordinary troopers as well from Mansfelds army later joined the armies of Christian IV of Denmark or Gustavus Adolphus in 1625-1626 and brought with them their hard won experience. Some that survived the Danish defeat joined the Swedes in 1628-1630 as did some that had not joined up in 1625-1626. So Mansfeld's army had an impact on the war beyond it being disbanded and Mansfeld himself having died.

Thanks for the additional info. My interest in early TYW mainly stems from figure choice. I'm doing 28mm with TAG and those figures seem suitable for early armies. I guess eventually I'd like to have both sides, but have decided to start with the Protestants. These early campaigns seem very interesting.