How many overlap Dice

[philqw78]

Red is a BG of Knights fighting in 2 directions. We have already discovered that it cannot expand in a different thread. But the Q here is how many overlap dice does the green BG in column to the right get? 2 or 4?

[grahambriggs]

From the melee rules:

"Each overlapping file fights with the same net Points of Advantage (POA) and same number of ranks as if it was in front edge contact with the overlapped enemy base."

So if the overlappers are cavalry, they'll get 2 dice for the first and second ranks. If thery're rfagged only 1, of course.

[philqw78]

But the column overlaps 2 front rank enemy bases. The one at the top of the picture and the one at the bottom

[grahambriggs]

If they were in front edge contact with any of the red bases though only the front two bases of the green column would fight.

[shadowdragon]

But the column overlaps 2 front rank enemy bases. The one at the top of the picture and the one at the bottom

It's not explicitly stated but the intent seems to be that a file can contribute to only one overlap.

There's the quote from Graham above - implying that an overlapping file fights "as if" in front edge contact with the enemy bases. The file can't "as if" be in front edge contact with both sides of the enemy BG. It's not stated, but the "as if" implies that the stepping forward is irrelevant to evaluating the combat contribution of the overlapping file.

"A BG can only be overlapped by one file at each of end of its 4 edges." - Again it's not explicitly stated that it can't be overlapped twice by the same file but combined with the "as if" in front edge contact, BG bases being contiguous it would seem to imply just one overlap and only 2 dice unless frag'd.

"Bases overlapping two enemy battle groups can only contribute melee dice against one of them." - This refers to overlapping two BG's, presumably on either side of the overlapping file, but if the overlapping BG above were not so far forward to be in contact with the rear facing rank, we'd be in agreement - just 2 dice; and then if another enemy BG were overlapped on the other side it would still be just 2 dice but with a choice of which BG was overlapped.

"An overlap fights against the same enemy base as the friendly base for which it provides an overlap." - similar to the above statement, but it sort of implies that an ovelap (i.e., overlapping file) provides an overlap for a single friendly base.

Now consider this variation:

The four green bases at the bottom aren't there, there's just the green bases at the top and the overlapping file. A red bases face upward. No problem. The overlapping file fight "as if" it facing the other way fighting the top red base from the front. Now put another red BG, facing downward, in contact with the overlapping file in contact with the bottom two green bases of the flanking green BG. This new red BG is in melee with a 3rd green BG. See the diagram below.

Whatever we agree for the OP diagram should be consistent with this diagram. Either the overlapping file gets only one overlap in both cases or gets two overlaps, but my vote is just one overlap.

[philqw78]

Both the first and third bases of the column are in partial side edge contact with enemy in frontal contact with its friends. Each of these has a base behind. Surely therefore it must add 4 dice.

In the SD post Only the 4th rank of the column is in overlap, so they would give an overlap of 2 left and 1 right.

I posted this originally in reply to Graham, but you jumped in with a new diagram.

But I agree abase can only provide 1 overlap dice. The column is different.

[shadowdragon]

Both the first and third bases of the column are in partial side edge contact with enemy in frontal contact with its friends. Each of these has a base behind. Surely therefore it must add 4 dice.

I edited the diagram - as I had made a mistake from what I intended - so that it's the fourth base of the column in partial side edge contact with enemy in frontal contract with its friends. So I guess you're saying 3 dice as there is no base behind the 4th base, but if the column does get 3 dice, then the OP example should have 4 dice.

[philqw78]

Both diagrams show the column with 2 bases in overlap postition as defined by the rules.

(Also see edits above)

[shadowdragon]

Both the first and third bases of the column are in partial side edge contact with enemy in frontal contact with its friends. Each of these has a base behind. Surely therefore it must add 4 dice.

In the SD post Only the 4th rank of the column is in overlap, so they would give an overlap of 2 left and 1 right.

I posted this originally in reply to Graham, but you jumped in with a new diagram.

But I agree abase can only provide 1 overlap dice. The column is different.

Agree. According to the definition of an overlap position, the 1st and 3rd bases of the column are in side edge contact with an enemy base fighting friends to the enemy base's front in the OP diagram while it's the 1st and 4th base in the diagram I posted. You don't have to be facing the same way as the friends. So the column BG has two bases in a valid overlap position; and it gets 4 dice in OP case and 3 dice in the case I posted. It would be inconsistent for the column to have only 1 base in a valid overlap position for the OP case and 2 bases for the case I posted.

[shadowdragon]

Both diagrams show the column with 2 bases in overlap postition as defined by the rules.

(Also see edits above)

"Hard evidence" according to dave_r:

"An overlap position is one with a base in any of the following situations:

- Full or partial side edge to side edge contact with an enemy base that is in front edge contact with friends." - there are no other conditions defined. Both diagrams show the column with 2 bases in an overlap position.

[grahambriggs]

Both the first and third bases of the column are in partial side edge contact with enemy in frontal contact with its friends. Each of these has a base behind. Surely therefore it must add 4 dice.

In the SD post Only the 4th rank of the column is in overlap, so they would give an overlap of 2 left and 1 right.

I posted this originally in reply to Graham, but you jumped in with a new diagram.

But I agree abase can only provide 1 overlap dice. The column is different.

And where in the rules does it say you get 4 dice? The bit I quoted says that you fight each file as if in frontal contact, which would be two dice.

[philqw78]

And where in the rules does it say you get 4 dice? The bit I quoted says that you fight each file as if in frontal contact, which would be two dice.

I also agree that the file fights as if in frontal contact.

But the file has 2 bases in legal overlap of 2 different enemy bases. So each of these 2 can fight (as if in frontal contact*)

In your reading it would be different if the column was instead 2 times 2 base battle groups following each other with a gnats todger between them. Which doesn't make sense

Not saying that mine makes much more sense but......

*this opens up another rule query so I'll open a new thread

[philqw78]

And where in the rules does it say you get 4 dice? The bit I quoted says that you fight each file as if in frontal contact, which would be two dice.

Also, now I have digested the rule, It says a BG can be overlapped by one file at each end of its 4 edges. It is overlapped at both ends of one of its edges in my example so still 4 dice.

[shadowdragon]

And where in the rules does it say you get 4 dice? The bit I quoted says that you fight each file as if in frontal contact, which would be two dice.

Also, now I have digested the rule...

Do you need some antacid now?

[bbotus]

OK, so is everyone agreed? In Phil's post the column gets 4 dice but in Shadowdragon's pic (as edited) the column gets 2 dice against the enemy on the left and 1 die against the enemy on the right since the 3rd base is not in an eligible overlap position and not in a position to fight as a rear rank.

There is no other way to read pages 75 (which defines overlaps only by bases not files), page 86 (which says a base can only be overlapped by 1 file on 1 side but a base overlapping 2 enemy BGs can only fight one of them), and page 92 (which allows the rear rank of an overlapping base to fight).

[titanu]

Could you also argue that they get none as it is an internal overlap? Where are the 'flanks' of a unit that is facing in two directions 180 degees apart, surely it cannot have 4 flanks that can be overlapped?

[philqw78]

No Bob, it has two flanks and can be overlapped at each end of those two flanks. 2x2 is 4.

[titanu]

No Bob, it has two flanks and can be overlapped at each end of those two flanks. 2x2 is 4.

Assuming all green bases are cavalry and are steady how many total bases are you fighting with?

[titanu]

No Bob, it has two flanks and can be overlapped at each end of those two flanks. 2x2 is 4.

You can't have more than one end to a flank - a flank is a flank

[philqw78]

So a flank has infinite length then Bob? I can waffle about infinity for quite some time. Anyway read the previous posts. Namely from the rules
"a BG can be overlapped by one file at each end of its 4 edges."
Be they front, rear or flank edges.