Who can fight?

[titanu]

NOTE: the light horse bases have moved and should only be in contact with the END base of the column.
This is the original contact position. The column of knights has been charged in the front by the Rajputs and in the flank by the light horse.
The question is: what are their options to get extra bases to fight in the melee. Are they any of these or none and they have to stay where they are?

[grahambriggs]

Well first the light horse conform to the knight base they are in contact with, if they can. Looks like they shift a little to the left as we look at the picture to line up.

You're "out of formation" due to the flank charge so no need to follow formation rules.

So you can feed in knight bases using the normal mechanism. I can't see anything saying that the knight BG can't split into two parts while doing.

Picture 2: No, can't do this in one bound as you can only expand by one file and you've expanded by two files.

Picture 3: Yes, this works as you are only expanding by one file.

Picture 4. No. to make this work you would have to shift that knight base at the back (the one that turned when the LH charged) by 1cm towards the right. Bases that are fighting can't be moved:

"Only bases that fulfil the following criteria can be moved:
o They must not be in a position to contribute to combat prior to being moved (with dice or by creating a Point of Advantage (POA))."

[titanu]

Picture 3: Yes, this works as you are only expanding by one file.
Picture 4. No. to make this work you would have to shift that knight base at the back (the one that turned when the LH charged) by 1cm towards the right. Bases that are fighting can't be moved:

But I could do Pic 3. in the impact turn and then do Pic 2. in my next bound.

Thanks Graham

[grahambriggs]

If you're still there...

[titanu]

If you're still there...

Excuse me but I fought as pic1 e.g. only one knight base to the front and one to the side and still beat both units!!

[bbotus]

Look at page 56, last bullet. When the LH contacted the Kn flank, both Kn's contacted must turn since neither was in contact to the front.

At the start of the Manoeuver Phase, the LH will line up with the 2 knight bases. It is hard to tell from the pic but it looks like they will move slightly to their own right pushing the LF over to make room (page 71, 2nd bullet on the page). So your 4th pic is correct except the LH need to move to their right.

Now comes 'Feeding More Bases Into An Existing Melee'. It is the LH turn. I'm assuming the Rajputs are Cav so the Rajputs and LH are fully engaged and can't expand. Even if the Rajputs are Kn, they can't expand because there is no room to do so (page 72, 2nd bullet).

It isn't the knights turn so they are only allowed to match an existing overlap, which would be against the Rajputs and move the 2nd rank to their left as in pic 2. However, both pic 2 and 3 are totally illegal formations. Page 22 says bases cannot be separated except where specifically allowed by the rules; and, in every case, the bases are then immediately shifted to remain in contact with the rest of the unit. So if the 2nd rank Kn is shifted to the overlap, then the formation will have to be shifted somehow to maintain contact. This is not covered anywhere in the rules that I can find. Personally, I think they can't do it. But I've been wrong before. Make an umpire call or roll a die.

The 2nd option would be to wait until the Kn Manoeuver Phase and turn the 2nd base to overlap the LH. Then, in the LH turn, the LH would shift left to line up. This is the option I would tend to allow as it is in keeping with the spirit of the rules but not exactly addressed.

The 3rd option is to not allow the 2nd Kn base to do anything, which seems kind of drastic since the authors want the melee to gradually spread .

[titanu]

Look at page 56, last bullet. When the LH contacted the Kn flank, both Kn's contacted must turn since neither was in contact to the front.

I you read my explainantion they only hit one base in the picture they have moved.

[gozerius]

The question is then how did they move to get where they are? Did they hit the knights in column and then expand in melee?
I don't see any other way they could reach sort of the position which they are in. If that is the case, the first thing that happens is the front base would conform to the knight base. Then since there is not enough room for the column to expand to the left or right they cannot expand.
The knights cannot move any of their unengaged bases without breaking contact with their own bases which are already in contact with the enemy, so cannot feed more bases in.

[philqw78]

The LH seem to be moving randomly in a lot of the pictures Bob. You need to explain how they cam to be in the position they are

[titanu]

The LH seem to be moving randomly in a lot of the pictures Bob. You need to explain how they cam to be in the position they are

They charged along the flank of the blue cav with yellow headdresses thus clipping the last knight in the column with their fromt right corner. In the pic they have already conformed.

[titanu]

The knights cannot move any of their unengaged bases without breaking contact with their own bases which are already in contact with the enemy, so cannot feed more bases in.

What justification do you have for saying this?

[gozerius]

The knights cannot move any of their unengaged bases without breaking contact with their own bases which are already in contact with the enemy, so cannot feed more bases in.

What justification do you have for saying this?

The general rule is that all bases in a BG must be in side and edge contact with another base. Furthermore, except for partilly interpenetrating friendly troops all bases in a BG must remain contiguous. For example, in the impact phase, no file may step forward past the point which would lose contact with the adjacent file. Bases which turn in the impact phase shift to maintain contiguity as well. When removing bases, a base which is removed must be replaced in such a way that contiguity is preserved. Since this applies in non-voluntary situations, it stands to reason that it also applies to voluntary situations.

I stand by my earlier comment that the LH cannot expand because they are blocked by the LF. So the 3rd knight cannot turn to "feed a base in".

[bbotus]

I stand by my earlier comment that the LH cannot expand because they are blocked by the LF. So the 3rd knight cannot turn to "feed a base in"

Are you saying the 3rd knight can never turn or just in the LH turn since there is no overlap to match? How would you handle turning the 3rd knight in his own manoeuver phase?

[grahambriggs]

The knights cannot move any of their unengaged bases without breaking contact with their own bases which are already in contact with the enemy, so cannot feed more bases in.

What justification do you have for saying this?

The general rule is that all bases in a BG must be in side and edge contact with another base. Furthermore, except for partilly interpenetrating friendly troops all bases in a BG must remain contiguous. For example, in the impact phase, no file may step forward past the point which would lose contact with the adjacent file. Bases which turn in the impact phase shift to maintain contiguity as well. When removing bases, a base which is removed must be replaced in such a way that contiguity is preserved. Since this applies in non-voluntary situations, it stands to reason that it also applies to voluntary situations.

I stand by my earlier comment that the LH cannot expand because they are blocked by the LF. So the 3rd knight cannot turn to "feed a base in".

To take your last point first, I suspect the LH were two wide when they charged and the conform has not quite been done correctly.

Your first point is wrong, I'm afraid. The BG Formations rule is indeed edge to edge, corner to corner and so on. But it has a number of exceptions. Fighting in two directions is one of them. Indeed, the Reforming rules say such a BG is unable to reform. There is no general rule that says bases must be contiguous at all times. Instead, as you say, there are specific limitations to things like stepping forwards that stop it in those circumstances. There is no rule in "Feeding in" that says bases must remain contiguous.

Whether "it stands to reason" or not that parts of the rules should be extrapolated to other areas where the rules say something different isn't relevant. What's relevant is what the rules say. And it's in the spirit of 'feeding in' - a gradual spreading of the fighting.

[gozerius]

Are you saying that unless a rule specifically prohibits a situation which violates the general principles of the game its allowed?

[titanu]

Are you saying that unless a rule specifically prohibits a situation which violates the general principles of the game its allowed?

You have a good point but who is going to decide what are the 'general principles of the game'. You are siting units not having gaps between bases but I and citing that you shoud allow bases to fight if possible

[grahambriggs]

Are you saying that unless a rule specifically prohibits a situation which violates the general principles of the game its allowed?

No. I'm saying there are no 'general principles'. There are just rules. You seem to be assuming that if, say, 5 sections of the rules have mechanisms that happen to prevent a BG breaking up and a sixth section does not prevent same then we should assume that there is a 'general principle' that says you can't break up a BG in the sixth section. But there isn't. I think you may be reading in things that aren't there.

The feeding in rules tell you very specifically how to feed in. Of course, the BG is still subect to the other rules, such as the BG Formation rules. And those latter rules say that you stay in a rectangular contiguous formation in many circumstances. So if you are in formation and just in combat to your front, you must stay in a the edge to edge, corner to corner formation. But it has exceptions, and fighting in two directions is one of them.

The thing is that the feeding in rule allows you to match against enemy bases, and if a BG is 'unformed' it is one of the exceptions to the 'rectangular formation'. It's also historically realistic. Crusader knights fighting Syrian, Ayyubid or Turk cavalry were keen to get stuck in. At Hattin, they were completely surrounded, thirsty and tired and yet they still all went into combat. I can't see it as remotely historical that half the knights wouldn't fight.

[philqw78]

. I can't see it as remotely historical that half the knights wouldn't fight.

Interpretation of the rules has nothing to do with history

[gozerius]

Graham,

The general rule on page 22 states [/quote]"Bases cannot be separated, except where this is specifically allowed by the rules."[quote]

The only exception mentioned in the rules that allows a BG to split is when partially interpenetrating friendly troops.

[dave_r]

Graham,

The general rule on page 22 states

"Bases cannot be separated, except where this is specifically allowed by the rules."

The only exception mentioned in the rules that allows a BG to split is when partially interpenetrating friendly troops.

But it is specifically allowed by the rules on page 23?