Christmas Quiz IV - Orb Appended Question

[bbotus]

philqw78 did a great job putting together 6 quizzes just before Christmas. There was a lengthy discussion on Orbs following his question in:
viewtopic.php?t=30250
Here is a follow-up question on Orbs. An Orb faces in 4 directions. If an Orb is fired at by bows, how many bases count as in the first 3 ranks for purposes of figuring the 1 hit per 3 bases result for each of the following sized BGs in Orb:

1. 6 bases?
2. 8 bases?
3. 12 bases?

Bonus question

4. What is your logic and rules reference?

[grahambriggs]

Good question. And the rules don't really cover it, so there is more than one possibility.

The "hits per base" rules In Appendix 3, Glossary of Terms are clear "Other troops count all bases in the front 3 ranks only".

But what are the front three ranks of an orb?

The formation rules don't cover it. So I think we are down to the Special Features section for the rules on Orb.

There are two possibilities:

bullet 2 that says how you depict an orb. Two files wide. So this would suggest that six bases count.

bullet 7, sub bullet 5 where it says "Fights in any direction with one quarter of its bases, rounded up. Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases.". This raises several issues:

- what does "fights" mean? Does it include standing there being shot at? The rules don't say. However, since the close combat section uses 'fights' and the shooting section doesn't I suspect the intention is that being shot at doesn't mena "fighting"

- half the bases are front rank. What rank are the others in? Presumably second rank.

- "fights in any direction with a quarter of its bases". You might say that you then count a quarter of the bases for each "direction". Doesn't make much sense (which again suggests that it doesn't mean shooting) as a BG shooting has an arc and priorities, not a direction.

So i would say, on very shaky foundations, that the first option is the only viable one to use so in all cases quoted the orb counts as 6 bases.

[philqw78]

Its the same problem for 1 hit per 2 or 3 for the CT minus. But becomes more complex. As orbs are technically 4 bases deep, how many bases count for HPB if it is in contact on 1 face; more then 1 face; or opposite faces. Can faces that are not in contact with enemy be shot? (at a minus poa)

[GordonJ]

Orbs have four faces but they are not four bases deep, Phil. Since the rules refer to how to calculate how many bases are in the first and second ranks of each face, then I think it follows that all orbs contain just two ranks. Even a 12-strong battlegroup in orb has just three bases per facing – in two ranks.

So the answer to the question would be:
1: 2 hits
2: 3 hits
3: 4 hits

I'd argue that an orb being shot at is just like a unit facing in two directions (ie, with two facings) that somehow managed to get shot at after winning combats but before reforming, which would certainly count all its bases (not just those on the face nearest the shooters).

I haven't got my rule book with me so I'll skip the bonus.

[shadowdragon]

Orbs have four faces but they are not four bases deep, Phil. Since the rules refer to how to calculate how many bases are in the first and second ranks of each face, then I think it follows that all orbs contain just two ranks. Even a 12-strong battlegroup in orb has just three bases per facing – in two ranks.

So the answer to the question would be:
1: 2 hits
2: 3 hits
3: 4 hits

I'd argue that an orb being shot at is just like a unit facing in two directions (ie, with two facings) that somehow managed to get shot at after winning combats but before reforming, which would certainly count all its bases (not just those on the face nearest the shooters).

I haven't got my rule book with me so I'll skip the bonus.

The glossary states that "other troops [not elephants, artillery or battle wagons) count all bases in the front 3 ranks only".

I do not believe there is a requirement that all bases in the "front 3 ranks" need to face the front. For example, if a BG in 3 ranks is attacked in the rear and the rear base is turned, what counts for hits per base all 3 ranks or only the 2 front rank bases that are still facing the front?

Note that there is no reference to number of bases fighting. Knights in 3 ranks count all bases even though only the front rank fights. Also, note that it doesn't matter if you attack the BG (shooting or close combat) from the front, flank or rear. Agree that there's some ambiguity when BG's are only attacked in the flank and have the flank file bases turned to face the attack, but I would presume the "front 3 ranks" refers to the unit in a being in a normal "rectangular formation".

The definition of the orb states that the orb "fights in any direction with one quarter of its bases, rounded up. Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases".

So, I agree half are front rank bases and half are 2nd rank bases, so all bases count for "hits per base". The only difference is that the BG's front rank bases aren't in a line but in a circle. If a 12 base BG in two ranks is hit on only 1 flank file, aren't all 12 bases still counted for hits per base? Why should the other "front rank" bases not be counted for the orb?

[bbotus]

Good comments everyone. At this point you are all right since it was a trick question being that, as graham says, there is nothing in the rules to cover it. So you are on your own and the decision of the umpires.

There was a discussion on it in July 2008 when the authors were very active on the forum and they did not respond:
viewtopic.php?t=7261
My best guess is that this is something the authors never thought about.

I tend to like GordonJ and Shadowdragon's approach to this problem. But that still leaves the question: Isn't an orb more vulnerable to missile fire? Phil's and Graham's comments would agree with this question.

[shadowdragon]

Good comments everyone. At this point you are all right since it was a trick question being that, as graham says, there is nothing in the rules to cover it. So you are on your own and the decision of the umpires.

There was a discussion on it in July 2008 when the authors were very active on the forum and they did not respond:
viewtopic.php?t=7261
My best guess is that this is something the authors never thought about.

I tend to like GordonJ and Shadowdragon's approach to this problem. But that still leaves the question: Isn't an orb more vulnerable to missile fire? Phil's and Graham's comments would agree with this question.

Perhaps the whole orb rule is an afterthought.

"Hey, we're just about done these rules. They're really cool."

"But there's no orb formation. Some war gamer, like Phil, is sure to ask about orbs."

"Bugga. Well how about we make a special rule for it that makes it the stupidest of formations. Then no one will bother us about it."

Little did they know that they'd run afoul of Phil and his enterprising Christmas quizzes. Perhaps they've formed an authorial orb.

[kal5056]

The authors would never form orb as that would mean 3 of them would have to trust Nik standing behind them.

Gino
SMAC

[shadowdragon]

The authors would never form orb as that would mean 3 of them would have to trust Nik standing behind them.

Gino
SMAC

Good point, but an authorial orb faces the greatest threat....it is obviously inward looking.

[rbodleyscott]

Perhaps the whole orb rule is an afterthought.

"Hey, we're just about done these rules. They're really cool."

"But there's no orb formation. Some war gamer, like Phil, is sure to ask about orbs."

"Bugga. Well how about we make a special rule for it that makes it the stupidest of formations. Then no one will bother us about it."

Close.

[shadowdragon]

Perhaps the whole orb rule is an afterthought.

"Hey, we're just about done these rules. They're really cool."

"But there's no orb formation. Some war gamer, like Phil, is sure to ask about orbs."

"Bugga. Well how about we make a special rule for it that makes it the stupidest of formations. Then no one will bother us about it."

Close.

[philqw78]

The definition of the orb states that the orb "fights in any direction with one quarter of its bases, rounded up. Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases".

So, I agree half are front rank bases and half are 2nd rank bases

It doesn't say which rank the others count as. Just that they fight.

It can also move 1MU to front or rear. Which then leads to the question of the definition since it is a representation of troops with neither. Or do we use the position of the bases for this, unlike where bases count as in contact for some.

[philqw78]

"Bugga. Well how about we make a special rule for it that makes it the stupidest of formations. Then no one will bother us about it."

Close.

He's not joking

[shadowdragon]

Close.

He's not joking

I have always found that the greatest (black) joke of all is reality. It wouldn't be nearly so funny if he were joking.

[bbotus]

Its nice to know he is still reading this forum.

[shadowdragon]

Its nice to know he is still reading this forum.

Even if it's only to find out what Phil's been writing about him???

Well, if it works, it works, so we shouldn't fix it.