Russian 85mm gun

soldier · Post by **soldier** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:15 am

Having played around with new scenarios and soviet tank models, Its good to see that the T-34 and KV -85 models are standing up to the Tigers and Panthers but they hitting pretty hard on the counter and trashing the poor old Pz IV G again. I see that both soviet tanks have a Hard attack of 17 which is the same as the Tigers 88mm. Although similar sized weapons, the German 88 had quite a bit more penetrating power than the Russian gun, which was more closely matched with the PzIV KwK (HA 15) and the US 76mm (HA 19

). I think the IS 1 tank is about right at 16.
Also interesting to note the 85mm AA only gets 14 in AT mode (although a different model it was very close to the tank version) Should probably also be about 16.

Here are are some stats from SP WAW which takes all its penetration models from Lorrin Bird and Robert Livingstons " WWII Ballistics Armor and Gunnery

75mm Kwk l/48 (PzIV G)= 140mms (armour it can penetrate at point blank), gives it a HA of 15
88mm KwK l/36 (Tiger)= 162mm HA of 17
75mm KwK l/42 (panther)= 188mm, HA of 19
Russian 85mm ZIS ( T-34 85)= 144mm HA 17 (a bit high maybe)
US 76mm M1A1 ( Sherman 76)= 144mm HA of 19 (super gun ?)

I know i'm a bit of realism nut but tank combat was often a game of mm's seeing how these units are gonna be fighting each other a lot I like to see them tweaked correctly.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:12 am

The issue with the 85mm is that it is available when the 85mm AD unit is available. Which is 7/7/1939.

That much HA that early in the war is pretty powerful and potentially game breaking, so the 85mm ATG has a reduced HA value.

The KV-85 just shared the 17 HA of the T-34/85. Any lower and honestly it would be extremely impotent against German heavies like the Elephant or King Tiger, even if they are depleted of all ammo.

As for the American 76mm well... that's how it's been since release. I suppose there hasn't been a need to address the unit because there isn't that much content where the unit is available (don't fix what ain't broke). I'm certain in the future if and when the content is steered in that direction, Western Allies equipment tables will see some luv like the Soviet tables did in 1.04. (There's also issues with the P-51 and P-47 for example).

impar · Post by **impar** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:50 am

Kerensky wrote:That much HA that early in the war is pretty powerful and potentially game breaking, so the 85mm ATG has a reduced HA value.

We seem to not have a problem with having "that much HA" in 88mm form since the start of the war.

PS:
From StuG to Kavallerie?!

Locarnus · Post by **Locarnus** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:35 am

impar wrote:
Kerensky wrote:That much HA that early in the war is pretty powerful and potentially game breaking, so the 85mm ATG has a reduced HA value.
We seem to not have a problem with having "that much HA" in 88mm form since the start of the war.

PS:
From StuG to Kavallerie?!

Yes, I agree.
And if you want to see a broken stat, check out the british Comet tank. It has a HA of 25!! with its 77mm gun. Granted they had good ammo, but 25 really breaks it, especially compared to the Panther or the Jagdtiger (afaik HA of 21 with its 12.8cm).

soldier · Post by **soldier** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:02 pm

I guess the tank balance is pretty good at the moment but sometimes it seems the russians have quite a few advantages, eg there stuffs cheaper and theres more of them but thats pretty historical. They did have some trouble getting the same performance out of equivalent calibre weapons as the Germans, hence the decision to arm their late tanks with the "big guns".
I thought I'd mention the AA gun because while the German static 88mm shares the same value as the Tiger, the russian weapon does not, but to be fair it was apparently slightly less effective than the ZiS gun and I'm not sure how widely it was used against tanks.

and yes the stats for the comet and some other allied tanks are a bit warped at the moment. Hopefully they will get looked at if the 1944 DLC's get happening.

soldier · Post by **soldier** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:05 pm

PS:
From StuG to Kavallerie?!

You've been demoted

impar · Post by **impar** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:19 pm

soldier wrote:
PS:
From StuG to Kavallerie?!
You've been demoted

Well, at least its cheaper to maintain and the horses can be eaten in Demyansk.

Lamont · Post by **Lamont** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:30 pm

Like the OG poster I am a bit surprised on how some tanks (note allied) seem to be overpowerd and a missmatch. I mean anybody knows T-34 didnt stand a chance against a Tiger or a Panther if not extremly close or behind the german tank. In this game however they are at least equal, imo opinion far better becouse of the pricetag involved to. I understand there needs to be a balance for the game but honestly I am starting to feel the wermacht gets the shortest stick in every possible way wich is quite strange since its the german army the player is playing.
Same thing applies to StuG's especially the Russian assault guns kicks the german easy wich again is a little strange to me.
Dont know maybe I have totally wrong info but if thats the case however did the germans kill of so many of these ?
Loved the game but finding more and more things I think is just broken or compleatly reversed.
By no means should a T-34 trash Tigers etc as they do but can owerwhelm of course (wich is what happend).
Or have I missed something here ? I know its a game, but Tigers vs T-34 was never a close competition except IS2 (generally speaking of course).
If I pay for a Tiger and/or Panther....thats what I want and nothing else. Hopefully we will see some changes in stats and preformances in the future.
A small suggestion would be to increase the range for Tigers and Panthers maybe to reflect their better guns, optics and accuracy. Maybe it cant be done only the devs can answer that one.

Sorry, end of rant

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:39 pm

T-34-85, which is the best T-34 model, loses 4/2 to Tiger I and 5/2 to Panther G. Heavies like Tiger II, JagdTiger and Elefant wipe the floor with it. Of course, older T-34 models do not stand a chance. What balance issues are you talking about exactly?

Lamont · Post by **Lamont** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:43 pm

Rudankort wrote:T-34-85, which is the best T-34 model, loses 4/2 to Tiger I and 5/2 to Panther G. Heavies like Tiger II, JagdTiger and Elefant wipe the floor with it. Of course, older T-34 models do not stand a chance. What balance issues are you talking about exactly?

Ok maybe I just have extremly bad rolls then....but I am not all that convinced

For the most part my Tigers compared to T-34 is a difference of 1 kill in favor for me, pretty lame to have that as an "ordinary roll" , meaning Thats the numbers I get very often.

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:45 pm

In my experience, Tiger I can fight on equal terms even with IS-2. It is a fair unit. But there many units in german arsenal which are even better against soviet tanks.

Lamont · Post by **Lamont** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:49 pm

Rudankort wrote:In my experience, Tiger I can fight on equal terms even with IS-2. It is a fair unit. But there many units in german arsenal which are even better against soviet tanks.

There you go then, we have to agree to disagree maybe.

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:56 pm

Lamont wrote:There you go then, we have to agree to disagree maybe.

Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on what you expect. If, in your opinion, Tiger I must score 10/0 against T-34-85 - yes, we'll agree to disagree. But if the 4/2 result I posted above sounds reasonable to you, I don't see a problem. I can generate any number of tests to gather statistics how these units behave in real combats, and we shall see where to go from there. It is hard to discuss vague impressions, especially since combat outcomes are affected by a lot of factors (terrain, weather, experience etc.).

Lamont · Post by **Lamont** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:37 pm

Rudankort wrote:
Lamont wrote:There you go then, we have to agree to disagree maybe.
Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on what you expect. If, in your opinion, Tiger I must score 10/0 against T-34-85 - yes, we'll agree to disagree. But if the 4/2 result I posted above sounds reasonable to you, I don't see a problem. I can generate any number of tests to gather statistics how these units behave in real combats, and we shall see where to go from there. It is hard to discuss vague impressions, especially since combat outcomes are affected by a lot of factors (terrain, weather, experience etc.).

No I dont expect 10/0 its just that I find that for me Tigers have preformed "badly" on so many occasions agains an inferior tank and it gets frustrating when you pay many times over for it compared to what T-34. I know there is many variables to take into account but when a 12 str Tiger only do 1 more dam compared to a 10str 150 exp T-34 on a regular basis I begin to wonder. Its a bit frustrating but again I might have gotten extremly unlucky in my last couple of maps. Time will tell.

Thanks for your replies, shows that you care for your customers and you should get much props for that!
So thank you sir.

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:44 pm

You are welcome. One thing I wanted to add is that Tiger I costs 703 and T-34-85 costs 576, so it is not a huge difference in price either. T-34-85 is a decent unit with nice mobility and nice gun, but it is lacking in defense department (ground defense 17, compare with IS-2's 26). So it can do some biting but will not stay for long.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:10 pm

There might be room to move the Tiger I's HA to 18.
But the Panther D and A are already at 18, so I'm not sure.

I think DLC 1943 will put a microscope on the Tiger I, and that will really tell us if it warrants any changes.
At the moment though, I feel the Tiger I does under perform slightly in MP games. It's more expensive and weaker hitting than the Elephant, so everyone goes for the Elephant instead.

flakfernrohr · Post by **flakfernrohr** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:44 pm

All you guys gotta do is go to the Cheat Codes and do some tweaking and experimenting. You can balance it all out or make a "Steam Roller". Just don't drink more than one glass of Champagne while you're doing it.

It's good to keep in mind that by mid war, armor rounds had been improved and were under continuous improvement from all sides. The Germans had superior gun sighting abilities at long range and the power to kill at extreme range. The Soviets improved tremendously as did other Allies with armament, sighting, communications between individual tanks and improved tactics. For instance the Soviet SU100 from 1944 on was really the superior armor killing gun they had, over the 122mm and 152mm and it remained unchanged through the end of the war. The SU 100 was given the name "Pizdet Vsemu" which I will not translate as there are probably minors reading. The ISU 152 was called the Beast Killer and was a completely different piece of equipment than the SU152 that was a Kursk in 1943. The SU 76 was changed to an infantry support role.

A lot of the SU100's were used in Hungary at Lake Balaton along with a large number of Lend Lease American Shermans.

I'm in the middle of making three separate equipment/graphic files as mods. The first one will be the game's specs with some custom graphics, but no tweaking to the specs. The second one I call "Hi Velocity" which is adjusted to what I believe are more realistic specs for some of the units. The third one I call "Steam Roller" and it is adjusted to have the same effect as a Steam Roller. I envision scenarios sort of like a scorpion on an ant hill. Sometimes the scorpion wins but the numbers of his foes is so great that his size and power can be overcome. With these three mods I can use the one I want in any given scenario.

Lamont · Post by **Lamont** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:37 am

flakfernrohr wrote:All you guys gotta do is go to the Cheat Codes and do some tweaking and experimenting. You can balance it all out or make a "Steam Roller". Just don't drink more than one glass of Champagne while you're doing it.

It's good to keep in mind that by mid war, armor rounds had been improved and were under continuous improvement from all sides. The Germans had superior gun sighting abilities at long range and the power to kill at extreme range. The Soviets improved tremendously as did other Allies with armament, sighting, communications between individual tanks and improved tactics. For instance the Soviet SU100 from 1944 on was really the superior armor killing gun they had, over the 122mm and 152mm and it remained unchanged through the end of the war. The SU 100 was given the name "Pizdet Vsemu" which I will not translate as there are probably minors reading. The ISU 152 was called the Beast Killer and was a completely different piece of equipment than the SU152 that was a Kursk in 1943. The SU 76 was changed to an infantry support role.

A lot of the SU100's were used in Hungary at Lake Balaton along with a large number of Lend Lease American Shermans.

I think most are aware of that all sides did improve on/in almost every area of combat abilitys. It would be cool if there was an added range or something for the German elite Pz (Tigers and Panthers and maybe IS-2 and similar great tanks) just to show and play to their streangth compared to the other ones. That might break the balance but for now I am a bit puzzeld about some preformance and stats. Either way you slice it it was the sheer numbers of the allied and not their quality that beat the the german top notch pz and nothing else.
As Stalin himself said "There is a streangth in numbers too". In this he was right on the spot.
As I see it a Sherman is more equal to a Pz IV more than a Tiger but I find that not to seldom do they preform small miracles in PzC.
Sure thing a Sherman could take out a Tiger but in 9 out of 10 times it would not! (assuming a stright forward match) same goes for many other comparisons.

Anyway I was merly stating my opinion on the Tiger I's preformance in my experience lately. I need to do some more testing but something isnt right with it, thats my gut feeling. Or maybe its all the others that are wrong ?

soldier · Post by **soldier** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:40 pm

There might be room to move the Tiger I's HA to 18.
But the Panther D and A are already at 18, so I'm not sure.

My version has all panther models at 19 HA so i think there may be room for Tiger to go to 18. Should give it a bit more punch against the SU units and 2nd generation soviet tanks, (which it currently lacks) and more power than the soviet 85mm (which it should have). Would also make it a more attractive option over the elephant.