Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

[Raisti]

Sry to make a new topic for this but the others are all locked.

I wanna ask again why doesnt Slitherine try Steam (or any other Distro site) out.
I ask again now because even Stardock now releases on Steam and as you may know the CEO of Stardock (Brad Wardell) was a real Steam hater.

But despite all the former hate his Games where put in Spotlight and where in the Topsellers (Sins of a solar empire) for a long time.

If you are afraid to lose Money just sell PC at a higher Price on steam and its win win for you (Many new Customers + more money )

To be fair, Question is also why isnt the Game on other Digital Distro site avaible.
I dont think its a good Business Model to force the Customer to do it your way.
Here where i life we got an old saw "The Customer is King"

Dont really feel like a King here because you force me to use your Distro Methods instead of my desired one.
(Thats btw one of the Problems of the Film and Music industry, they are holding on to Distribution Models and dont or slowly adapt new ones)

I wanna have a construtive Thread on this topic that wont be locked.
And plz keep your Steamhate for your self.

I know the downsides , for the Customers, of Steam and i dont need to hear them again.
They wont answer my Question.

[Rudankort]

Raisti, thanks for taking the time to write. I perfectly understand what you and other people in related topics are saying. But the question is not as easy as it might seem to you. And here is why.

- You seem to assume that everybody can sell on Steam if he wants to. This is not the case. It is always their decision to list the game or not, and they tend to prefer to work with bigger budget titles.

- Even if they do accept the game, prior to that the negotiations will take place, and on that stage they will press the developer to reduce the price to the normal level users of Steam expect. Their goal is to have the prices consistent across the catalog. They are NOT interested in listing more games which nobody would buy.

- Even if we are allowed to have any price we want, there are customer expectations. It is no secret that the graphics in Panzer Corps is not up to modern standards. For example, the screenshots from Sins of a solar empire you mentioned look much more impressive. Just look at user comments about Panzer Corps on more mainstream sites - they are all about outdated graphics and too high price. We cannot really expect to sell the game on mainstream sites without adjusting the price to customer expectations there. Then, and only then we can hope to sell more copies than we are selling now.

- And here comes the most important question. Why do you think that the mass market model is equally good for all games and all developers? Small companies simply cannot cope with the number of support requests if they sell a lot of copies for low price. This can easily eat up all development resources and completely stall any new development. More users means all kinds of new problems like MP server overload and the need to purchase and maintain more hardware. And so on. For this reason, you need to think twice before going this way. All games are different, and there is no universal solution.

So, here is the bottom line. We are not just ignoring Steam because we don't like it. In fact, we are always considering new sales channeles, and at some point in the future Panzer Corps might appear there. But if we conclude that placing the game on Steam, or on any other site for that matter, at this time or in the future, does not make sense, please understand and accept our decision. This is not because we don't respect our customers and don't want to give them the options they want, but simply because it is not possible for a number of business reasons.

[VPaulus]

Not much hope of keeping this thread nice and gentle.
Between Steam haters and Steam lovers, there's a never ending war.
Personally I'm not in love with Steam, but have no problem in using it.
I like to support directly the developers, specially when they are indie or small.

And here comes the most important question. Why do you think that the mass market model is equally good for all games and all developers? Small companies simply cannot cope with the number of support requests if they sell a lot of copies for low price. This can easily eat up all development resources and completely stall any new development. More users means all kinds of new problems like MP server overload and the need to purchase and maintain more hardware. And so on. For this reason, you need to think twice before going this way. All games are different, and there is no universal solution.

That's a good point Rudankort. And I've seen this happening in other commercial areas. Usually leads to bankrupt.

[Raisti]

Thx for the good reply Rudankort.
I will answer in a couple more hours (3-4 hours).
I am currently at work and your post deserves also an good answer which takes some time

So cya later.
Hope this thread wont get locked again before that

[kjeld111]

- Even if we are allowed to have any price we want, there are customer expectations. It is no secret that the graphics in Panzer Corps is not up to modern standards. (...) . Just look at user comments about Panzer Corps on more mainstream sites - they are all about outdated graphics and too high price. We cannot really expect to sell the game on mainstream sites without adjusting the price to customer expectations there.

On the other hand, the game has a very solid Metacritic score, both from the press and the public. Considering the fact that it is a niche game and that it is a remake, the scores and comments are probably as high as reasonably achievable, are a solid testament to the fact that despite issues about the price and graphics, the game is preceived as an excellent game, which must mean that for at least a decent fraction of the audience, the game is considered "good value". I'd be very very surprised to see this game "flop" on Steam. Of course, it's not me taking the risk and gambling the money - and your other points are well taken

[Aloo]

the game has a very solid Metacritic score, both from the press and the public.

This is the place where I found out about the game. Next thing I did was to look for it on steam. I had a few doubts when I discovered I cant buy it anyplace I usually do. But it was worth it in the end:)

[rezaf]

I could write a long lecture about my feelings towards Steam and the Slitherine/Matrix policies, but it'd surely be boring, plus I have already stated my view on more than one occasion.
So all I'm saying is: You guys should just take the plunge and pick any one game that has ANY amount of mass appeal, such as Panzer Corps or Distant Worlds, and put it on Steam - just to try whether your theories are right or not.
Panzer Corps is a good pick - it has a definate degree of mass appeal (WW2, Panzer General likelyhood...), it's base price isn't outrageous (though Steam would surely quickly downgrade it) and, most importantly, there's now an entire assembly line of DLC and addons, so even if the game doesn't end up selling loads of copies and thus compensating for the lower base price, those people are still just as likely to buy the DLCs and addons as anyone, thus bringing in additional revenue.
Distant World is an equally good pick because it now has two expansions which could have the same effect - but this is the Panzer Corps forum, so I'll not go into it any more.

Also, about the outdated graphics, sure, it's no Call of Duty, but it doesn't look horrible and works flawlessly. There are many relatively primitive games on Steam, just check out the releases from the "second row".

In the end, it is and will always be Slitherine/Matrix's decision, but I say: Just pick ANY game and try it. Maybe you're right, then you can point at the instance on any occasion and say: See, we tried, it doesn't work.
If it succeeds ... well, $$$ for you, that can't be such a bad thing.
Also, if you want to be super-careful, just pick a game that has basically already returned it's investement and covered your expectations - then there's very little to lose.
_____
rezaf

[IainMcNeil]

Steam would not touch any back catalogue games so we'd have to experiement with a flagship title, and this is not something we do lightly

[lordzimoa]

It is not a matter if we don`t want to give it a try really, we are willing, but if Steam will give us permission and wants Panzer Corps! It got good reviews and scores, but is it enough for them, only they can tell us.

You just don`t put a game on Steam, you apply and than have to wait and pray for a positive answer or any answer at all.

But like Alex and Iain have stated, it is not paradise at all, you have to drop your game to a price that makes hardly any return, Steam takes another cut of 30%-50%, so unless you sell really huge numbers, you sink your own niche market in the end.

We cannot give away games for a bargain and survive, it is a gamble and if it does not turn out well you are basically broke or have not made any real revenue at all, maybe some PR as yes, your game was at Steam, I cannot feed my kids on that.

Trust me we are not stubborn or stupid... maybe someday it happens and hopefully it than turns out right, but Steam is not all hallelujah!

[Grunewald]

Servus,
i don't know, whether something with STEAM has changed after my experiences with it - it was in march 2009 - or not. But that experience was so... impressing... so unforgettable for me. Back then i bought Total War: Empire. In the first time it seemed to me, that i was one of the lucky few, who where able to play the game. After nearly 2 weeks there was an update - which i did not wanted, but was automatically done by STEAM (so i felt forced in a way - that is, what i definitely do not understand as "the costumer is king"). After this update many of the others where able to play - i wasn't anymore. I feared the next forced patch to work for me and the one after that would make it unplayable again. What really made me angry was, that at that time i had no influence on making my own decisions on updating. The other thing was, every time i wanted to start the game, i had to be connected to the internet. When their servers where down or overburdened i was not able to play. Again i felt not like a king at all. After that i gave STEAM an other try. Liked to be a submarine commander - a real disaster. Since then - every time i read STEAM on a game - i painful remember my 100€ burned euros and put it back on the shelf.

I think that feeling to be in good hands depends on your own particular experiences.
As for my part - i don't want STEAM in my life again. AND... i do not want to be a king - but i had some trouble (self created) with a game from Slitherine. The support which i gained was one of the best and most personal that i ever had. (By the way, i've seen some of the world ) (Never had this with my problems with STEAM)

Greetings,

von Grunewald

ps: Nope - i do not hate STEAM - but also i'm no supporter for it for sure. (want back my 100 euros for nothing)

[Rudankort]

As was discussed many times, Steam sure has its problems. But this thread is more about the choice. Even if we do go to Steam at some point, it does not mean that we'll stop selling the game via any other channels which exist now. So, this is not really a problem.

Personally I think that eventually Panzer Corps will reach the point when placing it on Steam will make very much sense. By the time the game has already generated some income for all people involved, several DLCs and maybe expansions are available, and codebase is stable enough not to be afraid of support load generated by any size of the audience, this might be the most logical next step. And we are not talking about distant future here, we are well on track to get there. However, as was said many times, there is no guarantee they will want the game on Steam then, as well as there is no guarantee they want it now (on the terms acceptable to us, anyway). Since we cannot share any details about our negotiations with them, past or future, there is not much more we can discuss here. Just trust us - we hear the feedback and keep this option in mind.

[rezaf]

It is not a matter if we don`t want to give it a try really, we are willing, but if Steam will give us permission and wants Panzer Corps! It got good reviews and scores, but is it enough for them, only they can tell us.

You just don`t put a game on Steam, you apply and than have to wait and pray for a positive answer or any answer at all.

So you have actually already tried it?
I AM aware of Steams policy in this area - some really cool games I know of have been rejected, some really crappy ones have made it onto Steam.
There's not any pattern that I can recognize - maybe Rudankort coded a RNG for them and it works like the PzC combat predictions?

But like Alex and Iain have stated, it is not paradise at all, you have to drop your game to a price that makes hardly any return, Steam takes another cut of 30%-50%, so unless you sell really huge numbers, you sink your own niche market in the end.

That's the beef of it, really. The thing that's worth trying out at least once.
Prices of a Slitherine/Matrix game need to be dropped to these low levels to see if the "really huge numbers" of sales materialize or not.
I'm not a Steam hater, but definately don't like the service very much, either. However, one has to admit that it's wildly popular and has a HUGE userbase, some of which have come to be very reluctant (or downright refuse) to buy any games elsewhere.
Indie games that get featured on the frontpage often report IMMENSE sale spikes - it's "free" publicity/marketing.
Not actually free, because there's Steam's share and the fact that these things are often related to sales which will set the games base price even lower.
Still, in the bottom line, even for 75% off, there's often a massive increase in profit (as opposed to revenue).
Just picking any Slitherine/Matrix game and dropping it's price drastically could have a similar effct, but possibly with much less impact - the free marketing/exposure to the Steam userbase is removed.
If you'd manage to get some publicity, it might still be an alternative to try. Are you aware of the Humble Indie Bundles or the Indie Royale Bundles?

We cannot give away games for a bargain and survive, it is a gamble and if it does not turn out well you are basically broke or have not made any real revenue at all, maybe some PR as yes, your game was at Steam, I cannot feed my kids on that.

Surely you guys have old properties which have long earned their money with which you could just make such attempt.
Maybe Steam wouldn't take those, but you could just bundle half a dozen of them and sell them for a tenner (slight exaggeration - but SLIGHT), just to see how it goes.
Matrix have repeatedly discontinued games rather than drop their prices - if a game is discontinued, it's unlikely to generate any more revenue, or is it?

Anyway, always your call.
_____
rezaf

[IainMcNeil]

I'm sorry but you are just wrong

We are not going to try because I know they will not take it because I know them and how they work and I do not want to waste their time on somethign that is a definite no. They reject about 99% of what is submitted. They get hundreds of submissions a week and don;t even look at a significnat % of them. You'll just have to trust we know what we are doing I dont have any more to say. I know it's true and do not need to convince anyone

[Raisti]

Raisti, thanks for taking the time to write. I perfectly understand what you and other people in related topics are saying. But the question is not as easy as it might seem to you. And here is why.

- You seem to assume that everybody can sell on Steam if he wants to. This is not the case. It is always their decision to list the game or not, and they tend to prefer to work with bigger budget titles.

I know that not anybody can sell on Steam. But what you do is also assuming
You´ve got a very nice niche Game. There are not many Roundbased Strategie Games on Steam
And trust me i know cause its my favorit Genre

What comes to Mind are only
Heroes of Might and Magic 6 (i know AAA title)
Guardians of Graxia (http://store.steampowered.com/app/90500/?snr=1_4_4__13) which is a mix of Roundstrategie and Trading Card Games from Petroglyph
Elven Legacy (http://store.steampowered.com/app/25850/) which is closest to you product despite the setting. (started at 30€ 2 years ago)

You really got a good Product there which will run good if Steam accepts it. All you need to do is try

- Even if they do accept the game, prior to that the negotiations will take place, and on that stage they will press the developer to reduce the price to the normal level users of Steam expect. Their goal is to have the prices consistent across the catalog. They are NOT interested in listing more games which nobody would buy.

There we are all assuming. As long as you didnt try we wont know if Steam pressures you. But i dont think that they will force much lower than 14.99 $ down.
The best think for you is that the Price in Euro would be the same (14.99€) so you will almost get you 20 bucks if steam really forces a low price (which is just speculation)

http://steampowered.com/steamworks/FAQ.php (Point 3 is interesting on this. They say theyare just helping setting the price. Guess there is only one way to find out ^^)

- Even if we are allowed to have any price we want, there are customer expectations. It is no secret that the graphics in Panzer Corps is not up to modern standards. For example, the screenshots from Sins of a solar empire you mentioned look much more impressive. Just look at user comments about Panzer Corps on more mainstream sites - they are all about outdated graphics and too high price. We cannot really expect to sell the game on mainstream sites without adjusting the price to customer expectations there. Then, and only then we can hope to sell more copies than we are selling now.

Ok Sins look good but there are also alot of examples off bad looking games on steam that also got a great Userbase.
i.E.
VVVVVVVV (http://store.steampowered.com/app/70300/?snr=1_5_9__13)
or
Hearts of Iron 3 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/25890/?snr=1_5_9__13) which is a very complex Strategy Game and looks alot like yours (complety different Gameplay thou )

Also i dont think customers that are looking for good Graphics instead of good gameplay are your target customers.

- And here comes the most important question. Why do you think that the mass market model is equally good for all games and all developers? Small companies simply cannot cope with the number of support requests if they sell a lot of copies for low price. This can easily eat up all development resources and completely stall any new development. More users means all kinds of new problems like MP server overload and the need to purchase and maintain more hardware. And so on. For this reason, you need to think twice before going this way. All games are different, and there is no universal solution.

This is kinda paradox. Before you say because of Graphics in relation to price you dont have a large Base of interested Customers and now you say massmarketing will likely kill you or cause much trouble.
What is it now. Many people would buy on steam or only little
Despite the Paradox. You know that there are the Steamforums where every game gots a Subforum.
This is where most of the Customers go first and help them self
As for Bugs in the Game. they wont multiply only discovered faster
And for Multiplayer. Come on if you sell so much that your current server cant handle the load you already got engough money to buy and maintain a second
even indi developers can handle the much more load of steam customers and they have even less resources than you

I say now is the right time to try Steam or other Digital Distro shops.
All your Fan customers already bought the game and i dont think that the sales are really high right now.
Dont get me wrong here just saying all People who wanted the Game and know you already got it.
Releasing it on Steam now is like a Marketing Campaign where you earn money instead of spending it

Btw on the Price cutting of Steam.
Dont be fooled. Lowering Price doesnt equals droping in revenue.
Gabe Newell already said in some interviews that dropping the Price mostly increase the revenue for a game sometimes by the factor of 40 (not 40% i mean 40 times)
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/10 ... e-pricing/
Ok i know that Gabe also wants to push his ideas with such Statements but i dont think that its all a lie.

I hope that you really think about it now to just try it.
In my humble Opinion you only can win if Steam takes your game.
And if it really all goes wrong you can avoid this topic for good and i promise to buy it here

@ Grunewald.
Little advise.
You can turn off autoupdate for each game individual.
And its not Steams fault that the Publishers releases a corrupt patch

[kop101]

I'm sorry but you are just wrong

We are not going to try because I know they will not take it because I know them and how they work and I do not want to waste their time on somethign that is a definite no. They reject about 99% of what is submitted. They get hundreds of submissions a week and don;t even look at a significnat % of them. You'll just have to trust we know what we are doing I dont have any more to say. I know it's true and do not need to convince anyone

The will to win have to be greater than the fear of losing
As an experienced steam user (over 80 games) I don't see reasons why they wouldn't accept Panzer Coprs. There are many games with much worse graphics and without such good metascore and reviews.
*EDIT* oh, it's basically what Raisti said, saw his post a bit late

[rezaf]

They reject about 99% of what is submitted.

That's a bold claim. Maybe you are thinking about the Apple Store?
Either that, or you're including a couple of thousand "Hidden Object Games".

If it was correct, people would have a hard time finding any game on Steam. I mean, you're talking about 99% rejections.
99 out of 100 games don't get on Steam? Har Har Har.

Besides a high percentage of the mainstream games, Steam has loads of exotic games suitable for an audience much more limited than the Panzer Corps audience.

A few examples:
Pride of Nations - an extremely buggy, sluggish game about an era far, far less popular than WW2 made by a developer that also have a number of games published by Matrix.
Fate of the World - essentially an eco-game somehwat similar to a board game in which you have to prevent an eco disaster on earth. Surely the most popular topic amongst kids these days.
RailWorks - while somewhat pretty and 3D(!), obviously somewhat dull and interesting for a limited audience.
Frozen Synapse - ALSO published by Matrix, so I'm having a hard time to imagine how and why you'd slam the game
Gratitious Space Battles - a plan-ahead tower-defensive game made by one guy in the UK

That's just a few. I've seen some hex-based games too, but I can't remember their names.

I dont have any more to say. I know it's true and do not need to convince anyone.

Hey HBalck, how did you manage to hack into iainmcneil's account?
_____
rezaf

[Rudankort]

Hi Raisti. Some more interesting links and thoughts, thanks.

There we are all assuming. As long as you didnt try we wont know if Steam pressures you. But i dont think that they will force much lower than 14.99 $ down.

Yes, you are assuming here. You don't know if we tried or not, and we won't tell you. And if the game does not appear on Steam within, say, 3 months, you won't know if that's because they did not accept us or because we did not submit.

That's the whole point of my post: there are reasons why this game might not be on Steam. Not all of them would fire in practice, of course, but if you don't see the game in the catalog, this means that some reason does exist.

Ok Sins look good but there are also alot of examples off bad looking games on steam that also got a great Userbase.
i.E.
VVVVVVVV (http://store.steampowered.com/app/70300/?snr=1_5_9__13)
or
Hearts of Iron 3 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/25890/?snr=1_5_9__13) which is a very complex Strategy Game and looks alot like yours (complety different Gameplay thou )

Also i dont think customers that are looking for good Graphics instead of good gameplay are your target customers.

I did not say that the graphics are bad per se, it is the combination of graphics and price which is the problem. If we could sell on Steam on the same terms as we are doing now, it would be win-win, just as you said. But most likely in this case the sales will not be worth the trouble. Most people just will not understand why they want to pay so much for Panzer Corps when they can get games like Civilization and Heroes for just a little bit more.

This is kinda paradox. Before you say because of Graphics in relation to price you dont have a large Base of interested Customers and now you say massmarketing will likely kill you or cause much trouble.
What is it now. Many people would buy on steam or only little

At normal price few people will buy this game on Steam. At low price I would expect to get a lot of sales. So I explained what kind of issues this can generate. If we are lucky and sell a lot, we could get more money than we are getting now. My point was that this money would not come for free. It might still be worth it, or it might not. But once again, only we can decide here. For example, you don't know how MP server is implemented and how scalable it is.

As for Bugs in the Game. they wont multiply only discovered faster

The issue here are PC-specific bugs, which result from all kinds of exotic user configurations. We have our share of these, especially in the music/sound department.

And for Multiplayer. Come on if you sell so much that your current server cant handle the load you already got engough money to buy and maintain a second
even indi developers can handle the much more load of steam customers and they have even less resources than you

Once again, you are entering the area of guessing. Panzer Corps was not developed by Slitherine, they are publishers. Do you really know enough about actual game developers?

I say now is the right time to try Steam or other Digital Distro shops.
All your Fan customers already bought the game and i dont think that the sales are really high right now.
Dont get me wrong here just saying all People who wanted the Game and know you already got it.
Releasing it on Steam now is like a Marketing Campaign where you earn money instead of spending it

There is always something happening. For example, we are in the middle of Christmas sales now. The game has started to sell in retail in Germany. Etc. The life cycle of this product is not as short as you think.

I hope that you really think about it now to just try it.
In my humble Opinion you only can win if Steam takes your game.
And if it really all goes wrong you can avoid this topic for good and i promise to buy it here

Personally, I don't agree that now is the right time, but other guys might have other opinion. We shall see.

I don't know what else to say here really. In order to give us real advice you need to have a lot of information which, for obvious reasons, you don't have. So you can only leave this to us and trust we can make the right decision.

[lordzimoa]

We have a perfect Dutch expression that fits this discussion so well:

"De beste stuurlui staan aan wal."

"The best helmsmen stand on the shore."

[El_Condoro]

At normal price few people will buy this game on Steam. At low price I would expect to get a lot of sales. So I explained what kind of issues this can generate. If we are lucky and sell a lot, we could get more money than we are getting now. My point was that this money would not come for free. It might still be worth it, or it might not. But once again, only we can decide here. For example, you don't know how MP server is implemented and how scalable it is.

It will be interesting to see how the 50% off Christmas sale of PzC goes and whether it affects the things mentioned. $20 is pretty cheap for a relatively new game of this calibre.

[Grunewald]

As for Bugs in the Game. they wont multiply only discovered faster

The issue here are PC-specific bugs, which result from all kinds of exotic user configurations. We have our share of these, especially in the music/sound department.

My very personal solution on that would be: bring Panzer Corps out on MAC now! No exotic user configuration, pleasant OS AND most important of all - i own one and wanna play Pz Corps

ps: thanks for the info @raisti (do i still need the inet for starting a game? as i said, my experiences are over 2 years young)