Classical Greek - Sparta

[DasSheep]

Here is my Classical Greek Spartan List. I play in 15mm and plan on playing mostly 900 point games. All my opponents will be Immortal Fire armies. How does the list look? Any suggestions? I want to keep my armored hoplites so I can not take anything after the 460BC period, or else I would have taken more Cv.


1 x CiC - UC - 80pts

2 x Subcommanders - FC - 100pts

1 x 8 Spartan Citizens HF Armored Sup Drilled Offensive Spear - 104pts
4 x 8 Spartan Perioikoi HF Armored Avg Drilled Offensive Spear - 320pts
3 x 6 Hoplites Protected HF Avg Undrilled Offensive Spear -126pts

1 x 8 Archers LF Unprotected Avg Drilled Bow - 40pts
1 x 6 Javalinmen LF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Javilins/light spear - 12pts
1 x 6 Petlasts LF Unprotected Avg Drilled Javelins/light spear - 24pts
1 x 6 Petlasts LF Unprotected Avg Drilled Javelins/light spear - 24pts

1 x 6 Greek Cv Cv Armored Avg Undrilled Lightspear - 60pts

Total 890pts

[grahambriggs]

I would go for 4 TCs; or perhaps CIC TC, FC, TC TC as you'll want to move first to get across the table so PBI of zero is good.

Cavalry in 6s are a waste; go for 4.

I think some prefer the armoured foot in 6s for flexibility; not sure myself.

[DasSheep]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I am new to Field of Glory (though not new to war-gaming), but why are units of six calv a waste?

[philqw78]

Too difficult to manouver effectively against other cav. They last longer in melee or when being shot but if you need your cav to evade they would have to be 6 wide. Not much chance of that. And even if they are 6 wide they are likely to hit something in the evade or have more chasers so more chance of being caught

[grahambriggs]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I am new to Field of Glory (though not new to war-gaming), but why are units of six calv a waste?

What Phil said, plus:

- 6s cost 50% more than 4s, and the saved points could help buy another battle group.
- expanding and contracting is by up to 2 files in this gae. So a BG of 4 can, in one turn, go from a one deep line - which you need to be abble to evade to a 2 deep line - the optimum fighting formation
- a 3 wide, 2 deep block will change into a 2 wide 3 deep block if it turns 90 degrres. Not too bad but the third rank doesn't add much.
- a 4 base unit can provide rear support to a 8 base hoplite BG. So can a 6 base BG but the morale effect is the same.
- when shot at, 1 casualty per 3 bases prompts a cohesion test. Hence two hits are required for a 4 or 6 BG of cavalry. Granted, if they do only take 2 hits the BG of 4 tests at a -1 (1 hit per 2 bases) whereas the 6 will not. However, the 6 may be a wider target so you might have more enemy shooting at them.

Finally, you have to consider what a single BG of not particularly good cavalry can do. The answer will be "die horribly if I put them in the front line" so they'll tend to be reserves and rear supports.

If it were me I might be thinking whether to buy more hoplites instead. Or maybe some hoplites and some helots.

[ravenflight]

Here is my Classical Greek Spartan List. I play in 15mm and plan on playing mostly 900 point games. All my opponents will be Immortal Fire armies. How does the list look? Any suggestions? I want to keep my armored hoplites so I can not take anything after the 460BC period, or else I would have taken more Cv.


1 x CiC - UC - 80pts

2 x Subcommanders - FC - 100pts

1 x 8 Spartan Citizens HF Armored Sup Drilled Offensive Spear - 104pts
4 x 8 Spartan Perioikoi HF Armored Avg Drilled Offensive Spear - 320pts
3 x 6 Hoplites Protected HF Avg Undrilled Offensive Spear -126pts

1 x 8 Archers LF Unprotected Avg Drilled Bow - 40pts
1 x 6 Javalinmen LF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Javilins/light spear - 12pts
1 x 6 Petlasts LF Unprotected Avg Drilled Javelins/light spear - 24pts
1 x 6 Petlasts LF Unprotected Avg Drilled Javelins/light spear - 24pts

1 x 6 Greek Cv Cv Armored Avg Undrilled Lightspear - 60pts

Total 890pts

I don't like the protected hoplites in 6's.

Hoplites MUST say in two ranks to be effective. In 1 rank they are dead men walking... not quite, but close. With them in 6's you basically can't really have a 'third rank'.

My standard with hoplites (and the ilk) is to have them in 8's with two 'spares' for casualties. I'd possibly consider 6's for armoured as they are that much more difficult to get a kill on, but even then it would be something I'd be loathe to do.

6's also suffer from having to take cohesion tests with only two hits... again, more difficult to achieve on armoured, but quite easy on protected.

[DasSheep]

My idea with the small battle groups of protected hoplites was to put them on a flank with a sub commander and the skirmishers while loading the other flank with my Spartans and the Cv, with some of the armored avg in the center and the flank with the Spartans. The Sparties would do what they do, smashing their flank while the skirmishers on the other flank delayed the enemy advance over there. The protected hoplites would, ideally, not do much fighting against enemies that were not already a little beat up by the skirmishers. I suppose I could just drop the Cv and field them as more armored Hoplites. I also do not have enough little lead men to make 6 more BG's of hoplites to increase the three battle-groups of 6 to 8, though I suppose I will probably buy some more at some point.

With the Cv my idea was that once the Spartans hit home the Cv would charge the flank of what ever they were fighting, or possibly prevent flank attacks on the Spartans. I did not intend for them to be the hammer of my army. I suppose the Cv are not really very useful, or rather, not as useful as more little men with spears. It seems like being a HF army though I would not have anything that could really move quickly without the Cv.

Thank you all for the advice and idea's, even if it does make me sad for my poor beautiful Cv models

[ShrubMiK]

Alternatively, here's a thought which may get me booted from the forum...

Don't pay too much attention to the experts, play your army how you want to and don't worry about optimising it to the nth degree. As time goes by you'll no doubt come up with things you want to change about it...or maybe you'll find like me you just like changing the composition of your army from game to game for the sake of variety.

If your opponents play in similar fashion, you can all still have good fun competitive games. If on the other hand all your opponents are uber-gamers with finely honed tournament tiger armies you'll need to consider how important having a chance of winning is to your enjoyment!

Having a cav BG as a combination of rear support, and a mobile reserve that can quickly get to somewhere to plug a gap or exploit an opportunity is not a bad idea, and it does give you something that can worry a small amount of enemy LH. But I'd agree that having them as a BG of 6 is likely to have more downside than upside.

[DasSheep]

I mostly play with local folks who are not very stuck on winning. For the most part we all play to have a good time. I just need to get more of them away from darkness that is 10mm and into the glorious scale of 15mm. And you are right, sometimes its really nice just to play for fun and not care about winning!

Edit: Oh, and thanks to everyone again for all the advice. I am defiantly going to apply some of it!!!

[grahambriggs]

Yes, wise words from ShrubMik. Sorry , had optimised it for "will be more likely to win" rather than "most enjoyable game" or indeed "most historical".

a historical approach might warrant less expensive generals. The Spartan generals seem mostly 'lead from the front' types so I'd have a fair number of Troop Commanders in there.

I'm surprised spartan cavalry gets as good as average

[philqw78]

I am defiantly going to apply some of it!!!

I defiantly apply no advice from other people.

[grahambriggs]

Oh, I think the armoured hoplites stop being available in 460bc, whereas the peltasts are only available from 450....

[DasSheep]

I dont know how I missed that. I suppose I will just field them as normal javali men.

[grahambriggs]

Cheaper that way as the normal are poor. More hoplites

[DasSheep]

Kind of off topic, but I do find it strange Petlasts were so cheap and considered unprotected. I understand no protection for Psioli, but petlasts normally had Petla shields and often helmets, making them just as protected as a lot of infantry that receives an armor rating of protected. It just seems weird that they are unprotected when they have shields and helms.

[grahambriggs]

I think it's more that the standard rating for their neighbours is unprotected - e.g. thracians, Illyrian, Macedonians etc. Many of those have helmet and small shield.

Protected LF are quite rare - some Roman velites, the later Hellenistic Greek Euxenoi. Not quite sure what the difference is - maybe some body armour?

[DasSheep]

Maybe. Perhaps it was to keep the units cost down since even if they were rated protected they likely would not survive long in any sort of melee. Thureophoroi are essentially the same troops with a slightly larger shield. The two were used very similarly for a very long time, and were both the primary mercenaries of their era, (5th and 4th century for Petlasts, 3rd century for the Thureophoroi) yet Thureophoroi rate protected and Petlasts are not.

[philqw78]

Theurophoroi are also MF and peltasts are not. The difference, IMO, is interaction with other troops. Being proteceted would make them too good against lights anywhere or other troops at the time in rough going

[batesmotel]

The Peltasts in the Classical list represent trained skirmishers versus the poor skirmishers that represent troops such as camp servants and peasants. The MF often called peltasts in other lists are called Iphikratean hoplites in the FoG lists to distinguish them from the skirmishing Peltasts. These later are replaced/evolve into the Thureophorio and Euzonoi respectively.

Chris

[DasSheep]

That makes sense. Thank you for the reply!