with the holidays around the corner...

Tech support for Battle Academy

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Celeborn
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with the holidays around the corner...

Post by Celeborn »

...it seems a wish list is in order. Some suggestions:

--Deploy/Combine; squads with 4 or 5 men can split into two half squads (2&2 or 2&3) provided an eligible adjacent space is empty. Deployment uses all AP and causes 20 point morale loss.
Similarly, depleted squads of same type can combine up to a max of 5 men. Morale of resulting combined unit is that of lowest morale half-squad prior to combination + 20 point morale gain. Also uses all AP.

--Desperation Reaction Fire option; designate that a unit be allowed to fire above/beyond their normal limit during opponent movement however each additional shot causes a 20-30 point loss of morale with all attendant consequences (suppress up to surrender). This one is, ahem, aimed at limiting the ability to run a defender out of shots and then saunter up with no risk. FYI this problem was perhaps the greatest reason the original Squad Leader system was revamped into what we now know as Advanced Squad Leader. Its defensive fire mechanics, especially Final Protective Fire, are beautifully elegant.

--Dash; infantry moving from one building across a single open space to another building receive a cover bonus of 20% so long as they conduct no other movement. I recognize that Hunt provides some benefits in terms of stealth but it provides no benefit for units caught out in the open. Dash would reflect the difficulty a defender faces when a target presents itself only briefly.

--Vehicle Cover; infantry can share a space with a vehicle or wreck; for armored vehicles or wrecks infantry gain 15% cover bonus in addition to any terrain bonus. This is not to say that an entire squad can necessarily find protection behind a vehicle or wreck, thus the the rather modest bonus. That cover is available also provides a certain morale boost to soldiers, even if the cover isn't all that great.

--Armored Assault; infantry in same space with friendly armored vehicle can move simultaneously as long as both units have sufficient AP; infantry gain 15% vehicle cover bonus in addition to any terrain bonus

--Deliberate Immobilization; an anti-vehicle attack can forgo a kill possibility and instead try to immobilize the vehicle. Reduce hit probability by 30% with hit putting target in permanent "bog" status. FYI this was a standard tactic for Russian gunners in Stalingrad where an immobilized vehicle was nearly useless

And somewhere down the road there ought to be a distinction between a hull hit and a turret hit on vehicles. Most turrets were not armored to the extent of hulls. Implementation would enable use of the commonly used "hull-down" tactic whereby a vehicle would park behind a wall or reverse off a hillside crest so as to present a (much smaller) turret-only target. I realize this would require a significant makeover of the hit/kill mechanic and so will try to be patient. :-)
pipfromslitherine
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Post by pipfromslitherine »

Well, assuming you've been a good boy this year... ;)

- I'm not sure of the utility of spliting a squad, you take significant penalties to both attack and damage taken (IIRC) when squads are below strength. Combining I can see being useful to offset those penalties.

- It's an idea, but it seems to just kick the can down the road (e.g. you just soak up the 'desperate' reaction, and THEN waltz in?).

- I like it. But I am under the cruel lash of Iain and Richard, so it would depend on what they thought :).

- I thought that wrecks already gave some cover bonuses verses open ground, although I could be wrong.

- I think we would love to have 'tank riders' as a gameplay mechanic. We are more hampered by getting the visuals to work than by any code limitation (we would just load them up).

- This could definitely work in the Eastern Front expansion. I know that Merr(?) had a more detailed hit model mod that he made and I think included this and turret/hull hits. I'm not sure that it might be a step too far in terms of how approachable we have tried to make the game, but then, if it's not something you NEED to know about, then perhaps it would add flavour (and some tactical choices) without requiring too much inherent knowledge of tanking.

Thanks for all the good ideas!

Cheers

Pip
Merr
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Re: with the holidays around the corner...

Post by Merr »

Celeborn wrote:
--Deliberate Immobilization; an anti-vehicle attack can forgo a kill possibility and instead try to immobilize the vehicle. Reduce hit probability by 30% with hit putting target in permanent "bog" status. FYI this was a standard tactic for Russian gunners in Stalingrad where an immobilized vehicle was nearly useless

And somewhere down the road there ought to be a distinction between a hull hit and a turret hit on vehicles. Most turrets were not armored to the extent of hulls. Implementation would enable use of the commonly used "hull-down" tactic whereby a vehicle would park behind a wall or reverse off a hillside crest so as to present a (much smaller) turret-only target. I realize this would require a significant makeover of the hit/kill mechanic and so will try to be patient. :-)
Hi Celeborn,

You can try my old TrackHit! mod ... link ;
:arrow: viewtopic.php?t=20660&start=0

Perhaps comments can help Pip and the gang look at "options" that we can enable to allow us to play a more detailed game without making it a major (hard core) change.

- Merr
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Post by junk2drive »

the original Squad Leader system was revamped into what we now know as Advanced Squad Leader.
I think there should be two versions of BA, the introduction to war gaming Academy and a more full featured version (Battle University, Graduate, Advanced, etc.)

Maybe instead of East Front as an expansion, a whole game with more complex rules and features.
You can call me junk - and type that with one hand.
Merr
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Post by Merr »

junk2drive wrote:
the original Squad Leader system was revamped into what we now know as Advanced Squad Leader.
I think there should be two versions of BA, the introduction to war gaming Academy and a more full featured version (Battle University, Graduate, Advanced, etc.)

Maybe instead of East Front as an expansion, a whole game with more complex rules and features.
Yeah ... :D
random27
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Post by random27 »

I agree with this idea
pipfromslitherine
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Post by pipfromslitherine »

I'm certainly happy to support something like that if a group wanted to form to handle the design and data work. I imagine you would use linear ranges etc, and use a more detailed model, but it's all doable within the scripts.

Cheers

Pip
Celeborn
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Post by Celeborn »

Pip,

Thanks for responding so quickly. I will start with a little elaboration on my earlier concepts and then repay your kindness with yet more unreasonable demands.

The (not well articulated) rationale for splitting squads is to spread defensive resources across a broader range of locations, thereby mitigating the risk of one or two lucky shots. 'Half-squads" can also act as ersatz scouts, which are often at a premium IMO. As with much of my input it is based on veritable man-years spent playing ASL.

Re Desperation Protective Fire, I agree that once the "desperate" fire is soaked up the same vulnerability is restored, however the ability of a unit to fire several more additional times (albeit with morale loss) probably eliminates the ability to saunter up most situations, ie a 99% solution.

In all your spare time:

Smoke; just want to add my voice to the chorus. Infantry should have lesser version of what 70mm+ ordnance can generate.

Various/Sundry Fortifications (all are scenario start only except foxhole)

Barbed wire; requires all AP for infantry to move into, no AP penalty for vehicle but undergo bog check with penalty for not fully tracked

Mines (A-P and A-T); perhaps three different strength levels to reflect mine density. Can be placed in any non-water/marsh location but will be visible if location is paved. Unit attacked when moving into or out of location.

Foxholes; squad can dig foxholes after spending ~ 100 continuous AP. Foxhole converts any non-paved/water/marsh open ground location into rough terrain for cover purposes only. Probably should remain if squad no longer occupies location.

Trench; same cover benefit as foxhole but if movement to an adjacent trench/pillbox/fortification as if open ground.

A-T Ditch; blocks vehicle movement a la hedge/wall.

Panzerfaust (PF); German squads gain Panzershreck (PS) ability but with limited shots similar to AT charges. Like PS has two-hex range but with 20% hit penalty compared to PS. One PF if 1943 (July-Dec), Two PF 1944, Three PF 1945. Volksgrenadier -1. SS +1. Like AT charges can potentially be resupplied.

Finally, want to say that the AI scenarios in Market-Garden are vastly better from a historical perspective than the first two multi-player scenarios, which have no apparent M-G angle to them other than the order of battle. Wonder what prevented converting the AI scenarios to multi-player... FYI I have not yet played multi-player Arnhem.


pipfromslitherine wrote:Well, assuming you've been a good boy this year... ;)

- I'm not sure of the utility of spliting a squad, you take significant penalties to both attack and damage taken (IIRC) when squads are below strength. Combining I can see being useful to offset those penalties.

- It's an idea, but it seems to just kick the can down the road (e.g. you just soak up the 'desperate' reaction, and THEN waltz in?).

- I like it. But I am under the cruel lash of Iain and Richard, so it would depend on what they thought :).

- I thought that wrecks already gave some cover bonuses verses open ground, although I could be wrong.

- I think we would love to have 'tank riders' as a gameplay mechanic. We are more hampered by getting the visuals to work than by any code limitation (we would just load them up).

- This could definitely work in the Eastern Front expansion. I know that Merr(?) had a more detailed hit model mod that he made and I think included this and turret/hull hits. I'm not sure that it might be a step too far in terms of how approachable we have tried to make the game, but then, if it's not something you NEED to know about, then perhaps it would add flavour (and some tactical choices) without requiring too much inherent knowledge of tanking.

Thanks for all the good ideas!

Cheers

Pip
Merr
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Post by Merr »

Celeborn wrote:The (not well articulated) rationale for splitting squads is to spread defensive resources across a broader range of locations, thereby mitigating the risk of one or two lucky shots. 'Half-squads" can also act as ersatz scouts, which are often at a premium IMO. As with much of my input it is based on veritable man-years spent playing ASL.
Celeborn,

Splitting/Combining squads is something I'd like to see as well ... but, I think there would have to be some agreement as to what type of teams can split off the main infantry squad. For example ....

The basic infantry squad (in BA) is a 5-man unit. This can be increased to a maximum of 8. So, starting with an 8-man squad makes this easier to work with.

Now, lets take that 8-man squad and make some decisions when splitting ... here's my choice on the breakup ....

8-man Squad :arrow: ... 5-man team / 3-man scout team.
8-man Squad :arrow: ... 4-man team / 4-man team.

This is just a few types, but I was mainly looking at the unit types we have now when splitting the 8-man squad. We don't have a 4-man team (half-squad) but that will be new.

Ok ... combining the units is an easier matter. The resultant "squad" type reverts back to a plain infantry unit using just a "man-count" and not worrying about what types actually combine. For odd number men, new unit types with that man-count would be needed, but not a problem ... ie, 3 men merge with 3 men = 6-man team.

One point I want to stress ... Splitting a squad isn't always an advantage, but it does give us more options for the player (which is good!). One player would love to keep the 8-man squad intact, while another would love to split that (for whatever reason). Either way, each player has their own tactics to explore, and that's what keeps us interested in gaming!!!

Btw ..... In my TrackHit! mod ... I had a combining thing when it came to re-manning an AT gun ... One man from the squad would be killed off, and that man would capture the gun. Not a pretty thing and quite unrealistic (debatable?), but interesting none the less.

- Merr
Merr
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Post by Merr »

Celeborn wrote: Barbed wire; requires all AP for infantry to move into, no AP penalty for vehicle but undergo bog check with penalty for not fully tracked
For infantry, add a bog check when trying to exit the wire tile!! That's easy to code in.
For tracked vehicles ... moving into barbed wire removes the obstacle ... like a bulldoze/move combo.
Celeborn wrote: Foxholes; squad can dig foxholes after spending ~ 100 continuous AP. Foxhole converts any non-paved/water/marsh open ground location into rough terrain for cover purposes only. Probably should remain if squad no longer occupies location.
Digging foxholes in this game would be a waste of time. However, tile damage (shellholes) could work better.

Overall, cover "improvement" is a good idea, perhaps left to engineer units. I have a working engineer script that allows engineer units to improve a tile, at the cost of AP charges ... Nothing like explosives improving your cover!!! ... I always say :wink:

-Merr
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