what happens if an evade ends in the path of another charge?

[sparabara88]

in a recent game we had a situation we had never seen before my opponent charged a unit of lh lancers against a lh bow unit which did an evade to the rear the charge would hit another lh bow unit and it also evaded, so far we feel we got that bit correct, but further to the right my opponent failed a cmt and a unit of kn had to charge a unit of mf behind p/o the charge would also contact a bg of lf and they evaded the kn could not catch them because they were that close to the mf bg even stepping forward two mu would leave them short
but the lf bg evade would put them in the same place as my opponents lh lancers at the time we played it as being charged by two units and split the angle this allowed the lf to go in front of the lh and not get hit in the flank
we think we got this wrong i read the rules on hitting enemy in an evade, my options were
slide up to one base width to avoide enemy bg, that would not have being possible,
form a column behind any base that could make a complete evade move, not sure if they could
or stop one inch away from enemy bg
but we also think we are doing the sequence of play wrong
on page 68 it says if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned , does this mean you use the sequence of play for the first charge and then repeat the sequence for any other charge

[sparabara88]

ps what would have happened if the kn bg had charged first?

[hazelbark]

You are a target of the charge where you begin and react from there.

Note the sequence is the active player choosing from the options.

You do ALL the EVADES across the table first.
Then you begin the charges. If a charge causes a new evade on a unit that previously has not then that evade woudl occur immediately.

So in short a unit can be driven by one charge into the path of 2nd charge where it cannot evade or do anything but get hit in its new position.

Now for your specific example.
Since you can't be in an opponents unit, your unit attempts to shift or stop short as the case requires depending on the specific placement of the elements.

What does NOT happen is you don't evade in two direction if you weren't orginally charged by both BGs at the LF starting position.

Is that helpful?

[sparabara88]

yes thanks, we had being playing it one charge and evades at a time, we have only being playing4 or 5 years now

[hazelbark]

yes thanks, we had being playing it one charge and evades at a time, we have only being playing4 or 5 years now

Actually you are not alone. Others have made that mistake.

[grahambriggs]

yes thanks, we had being playing it one charge and evades at a time, we have only being playing4 or 5 years now

Actually you are not alone. Others have made that mistake.

I think that you're both right. Though this is an area that is most unclear!

"Sequence of Charges and Reponses Rule" at the end of the Impact section:

"Each charge and any responses to it must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence at the end of the book, but if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned."

To take a simple example. Firstly I have to Declare all charges (impact phase step 2 on the full turn sequence). Say I have two charges, from cavalry battle group R charging enemy Light foot 1 and cavalry Battle Group L charging enemy Light foot 2. To make matters simple, they're charging right and left across this page (arrows are the charges, dots open space):

R--->1..2<---L

For simplicity, let's say that both enemy LF choose to evade.

The way I read the rules:

I am the active player, So choose to do R's charge first, then L's charge.

So the next relevant step in the FSOP is "Make evade moves".

Since R charges first, 1 is the first to evade:

R--->.....2.1<L>.2....1<-L

Then we continue down the FSOP to the next relevant step: "Make charge moves"

R has to go first. It's more than 5MU from 2, and rolls 3 for VMD, so does't quite hit them:

.....R.2....1<-L

L now does it's charge. 1 is very close, and is a valid target (as "Any enemy battle group in the path of a charge counts as being charged if it can be „legally‟ contacted, even if it was not one of the originally declared targets of the charge.")

.....R.2....1L

You now move on to resolve the combat between L and 1. Since L is on a ++ (bottom of the evade rules "Evaders who are contacted by chargers always count as having been charged in flank/rear") and has more dice this will probably be short and bloody. There's a fair chance that 1 will break this turn and that the pursuit will catch 2 as well.[/b]

[batesmotel]

And I think everyone is wrong! (At least I think that makes as much sense as Graham believing everyone is right.)

So, as a straight out rules question:

Are the initial evades in response to all charges done before any charge moves are done (with the evades done in order as the reponse(s) to each charge in the order specified by the charging player)

or

Are all actions for a single charge performed (e.g. response, intercept, charge move) for a single charge and then you go back to the next charge chosen by the charging player and do its actions (response, intercept, charge move)?

As far as I can tell the rules as written are equally validly read either way and this is still probably equally obscure in V2 as well.

Chris

[bbotus]

As far as I can tell the rules as written are equally validly read either way and this is still probably equally obscure in V2 as well.

For us guys that aren't experts--you're kidding, right? The rules are very specific. The Full Turn Sequence on page 168 gives the order that each step is taken. There is no other way to read this. 'Make evade moves (plural)' comes 3 steps before 'make charge moves (again plural)'. So we make all evade moves, then we make all charge moves.

What isn't clear is what happens if Evader A is charged by B and its evade path would move it into the path of Charger C. Does it ignore the charge path of C since it was not a legal object of C's charge at the start of the evade move? Or does it split the difference of both charge paths? Since they were motivated to evade by Charger B, I'd say that they would ignore the path of Charger C which seems IMHO to be the way RBS intended the rules. So Charger C would hit Evader A in its charge move.

[hazelbark]

Graham who does bring some gravitas to the subject articulated the alternate Point of View.

In my view it is not played that way 98% of the time.

But perhaps it could be a touch clearer.

[philqw78]

Graham who does bring some gravitas .

[hazelbark]

Graham who does bring some gravitas .

I meant it as a legitimate complement. I respect his views.

[imanfasil]

I agree it is not played that way, but this verbage seems very clear to me that you repeat the steps for each charge in the order chosen by the active player... doing a loop through the charge sequence for each charge:

"Each charge and any responses to it must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence at the end of the book, but if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned."

Otherwise that passage is meaningless. If we just use the sequence of play and move all evaders, move all chargers, etc... why would it say that each one has to be actioned in that order?

[zoltan]

I agree it is not played that way, but this verbage seems very clear to me that you repeat the steps for each charge in the order chosen by the active player... doing a loop through the charge sequence for each charge:

"Each charge and any responses to it must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence at the end of the book, but if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned."

Otherwise that passage is meaningless. If we just use the sequence of play and move all evaders, move all chargers, etc... why would it say that each one has to be actioned in that order?

I think you are making a strong case here. At the very least the authors should tidy this wording up in V2. This is one of several situations we have identified on the forum where a loop-back is created which appears to be in tension with the dictum "proceed (once) methodically through the sequence of play line by line".

[bbotus]

Otherwise that passage is meaningless. If we just use the sequence of play and move all evaders, move all chargers, etc... why would it say that each one has to be actioned in that order?

I see what you are saying (for others reading this thread imanfasil is quoting page 68, Sequence of Charges and Responses). And, yes, it could be a little clearer on page 68 even though the Full Turn Sequence Chart says 'make evade moves'. "Moves" is plural. So you make them all, then move on to the next step.

The order that charges are made can make a big difference in outcome because of where troops will end up which is why, IMHO, the charger gets to decide the order of the auction.

[petedalby]

In my experience the phasing player declares all charges and then actions them in the order he chooses.

Each is done seperately, and sequentially - so evade, charge, evade, charge etc.

In this way it is possible to shepherd enemy evaders into the path of other friendly chargers.

I don't believe there is any loop of multiple evade moves. This only arises if a BG that has already evaded becomes the target of pursuers who have broken their opponents in the same impact phase.

[grahambriggs]

I agree it is not played that way, but this verbage seems very clear to me that you repeat the steps for each charge in the order chosen by the active player... doing a loop through the charge sequence for each charge:

"Each charge and any responses to it must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence at the end of the book, but if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned."

Otherwise that passage is meaningless. If we just use the sequence of play and move all evaders, move all chargers, etc... why would it say that each one has to be actioned in that order?

Well, one reason is two friends charging one enemy. i.e.:

....EE....


F1......F2

EE= enemy facing down
F1, F2, friends facing up.

If EE can't evade, I'll want to hit them most with whichever of F1,F2 is the best in combat. So that will charge first to get the most bases in. If EE can evade, I might charge with the fastest BG first, so that the slower BG doesn't get in the way.

I'm surprised that people play it that you get a second evade move. The FSOP tells you that evade moves don't happen after charges. If you do play it that way odd things would occur.

For example in the example I posted earlier, the enemy LF would evade to the right from one charge, then back to the left from the other. But then they see the original charge, so evade again...and again...and again...repeat until end of game.

[imanfasil]

I didn't catch anyone suggesting you get multiple evade moves. The issue was do you move evader1, charger 1, evader2, charger2, etc OR evader1,evader2,...,charger1, charger2...

It has a big impact on play if I can move charger 1 behind evader2 to cut off his evade move allowing him to be caught by charger2.

[grahambriggs]

I didn't catch anyone suggesting you get multiple evade moves. The issue was do you move evader1, charger 1, evader2, charger2, etc OR evader1,evader2,...,charger1, charger2...

It has a big impact on play if I can move charger 1 behind evader2 to cut off his evade move allowing him to be caught by charger2.

The third post of this thread suggested you get multiple evade moves.

Yes, charges from multiple directions can cause carnage. But it's a lot of work to get charger 1 and charger 2 in position to do it to start with.

[IanB3406]

If evading from a flank march can you evade again from a charge? Played a game this weekend and we did it at way as it appears the evade from the fm is before charges are declared. It certainly allowed the Huns to escape....won't be flank marching against a mounted army again!!!

[hazelbark]

If evading from a flank march can you evade again from a charge? Played a game this weekend and we did it at way as it appears the evade from the fm is before charges are declared. It certainly allowed the Huns to escape....won't be flank marching against a mounted army again!!!

The flank march arrives in the manuver phase. So there should be no otherr evades in that phase. Only 1 evade per phase please.