Cannon Fodder

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:19 pm

A tactic I sometimes use to scout out or draw out hidden enemy units is to send a badly demoralized transport ahead of my main force. It's loss generally has significantly less impact than the loss of a comparable "moralized" transport. I'm not sure if anything needs, or even can be, done but it seems unrealistic to me that a demoralized (or broken) unit that won't fight is willing to speed ahead of the main force into unknown enemy territory and face likely death.

djddalton · Post by **djddalton** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:50 pm

It's a game!

Plus...you're not going to tell him about the panther ambush...

Plus...it's fun!

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:06 am

djddalton wrote:It's a game!

Check out my post (poll) over in the CEaW forum. viewtopic.php?p=257295#257295

14 out of 26 that responded characterized themselves as 1. The Historian, 2. The Military Enthusiast or 5. The Hobbyist. This translates to almost 54%. So about half of us that play these types of games look for historical realism to a reasonable/practical extent.

djddalton wrote:Plus...you're not going to tell him about the panther ambush...

From a reality point of view I just think it would be difficult to get a broken/demoralized unit to scout out potential enemy positions.

djddalton wrote:Plus...it's fun!

Not for the transport I think.

gollummen · Post by **gollummen** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:02 am

I think it is hard to make a rule that stops that tactic.
Even if you make a rule so that broken units cannot move towards enemy units, you will still be able to force them towards undiscovered positions.
I think the only way to do it is to have supressed units loose all there APs, and that would be too much of a restriction.

dickesKind · Post by **dickesKind** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:03 am

Its the same like driving around infront of an enemy tanks with a truck to make him waste his last shot.
Not realistic but a way to play the game.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:11 pm

dickesKind wrote:Its the same like driving around infront of an enemy tanks with a truck to make him waste his last shot.
Not realistic but a way to play the game.

You're right of course. I remember playing Panzer Blitz years ago (30 years ago to be exact) and using trucks and wagons as blocking forces against Russian T-34s. Now that some brave truck and wagon drivers!

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:19 pm

The only way to deal with scouting trucks is to have some penalty for losing the truck. In reality this tactic would have worked to some degree if you could find some idiot to drive teh truck and had a limitless supply of trucks and idiots.

For the demoalised units issue its tricky. We could prevent you moving closer to enemy you can see but then you have to feed all that info back to the player. "Why can't I move here!". Then add in that the tile closer to the enemy might be safer - e.g. moving from open to cover or out of sight and the logic becomes almost imposible to resolve. In these situations you can tie yourself in knots to get it right and there is usually still a loophole so better to avoid it completely.

One option might be to tell the AI to not open fire on a unit that is already suppressed to save ammo. But then you end up with stupid situatiosn where you get a unit suppressed deliberately so it can cross this piece of open ground without being fired on as you know the AI wont fire.

The real issue is the system is turn based while representing real time situaation and that's why these odd thigns can happen but so far we dont have a robust and clear way to improve it.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:40 pm

Iain,

I certainly understand how difficult it is to plug this type of hole without opening up a much bigger and unintended exploit. The system seems to be working well as it is and it's probably best to leave this as it is.

larsent · Post by **larsent** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:22 pm

You could set a threat level for the transport. If is Unarmed or empty don't fire or disclose position.

Merr · Post by **Merr** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:41 pm

larsent wrote:You could set a threat level for the transport. If is Unarmed or empty don't fire or disclose position.

Well, we don't want to do this because unarmed transports can still capture VP's ...

I worked out a solution to the problem that results in a win-win situation

.

Ok ... As we know, broken units begin the turn with half their AP (action points). If the unit starts a turn unbroken and moves with a result that breaks them (morale <50) they immediatley lose 1/4 their base AP which may result in the unit having no AP.

Now ... make these changes ;

(1) Empty soft vehicles (trucks) ... If the truck takes ANY morale hit, it will lose ALL it's remaining AP immediately.
(2) Any unit with morale < 50 (broken) that moves and then takes ANY subsequent morale hit, will lose ALL it's remaining AP immediatley.

In other words, you can still move broken units towards the enemy ... but they won't get far!

The only other possible solution is to create additional HoldFire Action Button's (sub-conditions)... ie, Hold Fire against specific unit types?

Merr

larsent · Post by **larsent** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:04 pm

Simpler, unarmed/broken/transport units etc, should not be allowed to capture VPs.

further, Infantry should be needed to capture and hold VPs or at least limit AFVs to non building terrain VPs only.

Only played a dozen scenarios so far. Fun game, first time back to computer gaming for me since the close combat series.

ChanceBS · Post by **ChanceBS** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:57 pm

Possible solution could be to adopt the old Squad Leader rule. Dont remember exactly but I believe it was: Any broken unit was not allowed to rout into open terrain hex or enemy known LOS and must rout toward the "Rear", not allowed to decrease range to any known enemy position.

Doesn't completely restrict a commander for sending the truck down the road to find out exactly where the MG42 is, but does try to reflect the 18 year old truck driver, who's morale is broken, to tell his commander to *&^% $%^ while hiding under the dashboard.

Another way to solve this is to not do it. Some tactical advantages are found in "Software loopholes" and exploited. You as the player are the best judge as to what a truck would be really willing to do. Maybe your the type of commander that puts a gun to the drivers head and says do it... or your the type who takes a look at the broken down driver under the dashboard and tell him to get his butt to the rear. Remind him there is no crying in Baseball. Point is you decide.

However, I understand in Multiplay any softeware loophole almost always is exploited. Very frustrating.

Happycat · Post by **Happycat** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:27 pm

ChanceBS wrote:Possible solution could be to adopt the old Squad Leader rule. Dont remember exactly but I believe it was: Any broken unit was not allowed to rout into open terrain hex or enemy known LOS and must rout toward the "Rear", not allowed to decrease range to any known enemy position.

Doesn't completely restrict a commander for sending the truck down the road to find out exactly where the MG42 is, but does try to reflect the 18 year old truck driver, who's morale is broken, to tell his commander to *&^% $%^ while hiding under the dashboard.

I think that is the essence of the old ASL rule, and implementing it would certainly make sense here. While I am usually reluctant to sacrifice even a demoralized truck, I can see where it might be useful. Closing the exploit would be very nice. Programming it might not be so nice, however.

Happycat · Post by **Happycat** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:27 pm

ChanceBS wrote:Possible solution could be to adopt the old Squad Leader rule. Dont remember exactly but I believe it was: Any broken unit was not allowed to rout into open terrain hex or enemy known LOS and must rout toward the "Rear", not allowed to decrease range to any known enemy position.

Doesn't completely restrict a commander for sending the truck down the road to find out exactly where the MG42 is, but does try to reflect the 18 year old truck driver, who's morale is broken, to tell his commander to *&^% $%^ while hiding under the dashboard.

I think that is the essence of the old ASL rule, and implementing it would certainly make sense here. While I am usually reluctant to sacrifice even a demoralized truck, I can see where it might be useful. Closing the exploit would be very nice. Programming it might not be so nice, however.

Merr · Post by **Merr** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:29 pm

Happycat,

You mentioned ASL so I'll presume you're a boardgamer at some point in you life ...

One feature I'd like to see for MP is some kind of selection (option) when you post a challenge ... HouseRules.

As much as I disagree with trucks being used as scouts, or broken units advancing, I end up looking on the bright side ...

Trucks are easy kills ... the player is handing his opponent a promotion level medal to the first unit that kills it

.
Suppressed Infantry ... eh, same thing ...

I've wondered if another HOLD FIRE button would help ... You know, HOLD FIRE (target type). Let that truck wiz past the frontline ... It might fool your opponent into thinking it's "all clear!"

Merr