Rejigging the Romans - is it jsut me?

[plewis66]

It probably is just me.

Whenever anyone has seen my Early Imperial Roman army fielded, they've commented on how much it looks like it ought to, historically, in terms of balance of troops.

Sadly, I can't get a result with it. Now it's probably just me, but I've just found myself rejigging the army to give myself a better chance, and I've found it really no longer looks like an Early Imperial Roman army, which I think is a shame. In fact, I'm doing pretty much what I was advised to do in DBM: take the minimum number of legionaries. Except instead of making up the numbers with auxiliaries, I'm adding what I feel is a historically unrealistic number of alae and other mounted.

I'm sure this isn't an issue with the rules, or the army list, or the points system, but rather with my own inability. But I raise the point in case anyone wants to discus it further.

[rbodleyscott]

Well Alan did the opposite (took as many legionaries as possible) and came 2nd at Leeds, perhaps it is his advice that you need.

[hammy]

Phil,

Perhaps what we should arrange is for someone to use your Roman army against you with you using a different army. It is often a good experience to see how someone else uses your army.

Hammy

[plewis66]

I suspect so. There's definately something I'm missing...

Next time I'll try the max legionary route. Though with 32 legionaries, minimum auxilia and 1FC/2TC, this only leaves 36pts for other troops! If I can figure out how to work it though, then I'll be happy.

Maybe some time after that, Hammy would fancy a run out with them?

[sagji]

It is also how you organise it.

I would be looking (guessing at costs)
6 BG of 4 armoured legionaries
3 BG of 4 armoured MF axuilaries
no supporitng archers.
1 BG of 6 or 8 LF Bow
2 BG of 4 MF Bow
1 BG 4 Catafracts
2 BG of 4 Armoured Cavalry
Camp
3 TCs

If there are points left and you spend it on a FC make him a sub-general - so he doesn't add to the Pre battle initiave - moving first is more usefull than deploying first and choosing approach.

[bddbrown]

Keep at it. Generally speaking there is no substitute for playing an army to learn how to make it work. Some armies are easier to learn to play than others. I suspect that EIR has enough good troops in it to make it an A class army and is one of those armies that takes practise with a variety of different strategies in order to make it work.

[plewis66]

It is also how you organise it.

I would be looking (guessing at costs)
6 BG of 4 armoured legionaries
3 BG of 4 armoured MF axuilaries
no supporitng archers.
1 BG of 6 or 8 LF Bow
2 BG of 4 MF Bow
1 BG 4 Catafracts
2 BG of 4 Armoured Cavalry
Camp
3 TCs

If there are points left and you spend it on a FC make him a sub-general - so he doesn't add to the Pre battle initiave - moving first is more usefull than deploying first and choosing approach.

Thanks for that, I'll use at a basis for an army soon. As it stands, though, without the generals it comes to 734pts, and an FC is compulsory, making 784pts, and so not enough for a second general.

It does hint at what I suspect, though: that my usual lack of cavalry doesn't help. I generally take 4 each of Numidian Light Horse, and Equites Sagitarii, and they're really not up to much.

[hammy]

Thanks for that, I'll use at a basis for an army soon. As it stands, though, without the generals it comes to 734pts, and an FC is compulsory, making 784pts, and so not enough for a second general.

I suspect you have a slightly out of date set of lists. Almost all armies now get:

1 CinC as IC/FC/TC
0-2 FC's
0-3 TC's

You can have a TC CinC and two FC generals.

It does hint at what I suspect, though: that my usual lack of cavalry doesn't help. I generally take 4 each of Numidian Light Horse, and Equites Sagitarii, and they're really not up to much.

Possibly but my Visigoth list only has one BG of light horse javelin , one of protected bow sword cavalry and one of protected lancers. This generally has been enough.

The problem a lot of players with weak pmounted arms do is they try to take an opponents mounted on with their weaker mounted and loose. An army like EIR really should be using the mounted to support the foot and doing as much fighting with the legionaries as possible.

Hammy

[rbodleyscott]

It does hint at what I suspect, though: that my usual lack of cavalry doesn't help. I generally take 4 each of Numidian Light Horse, and Equites Sagitarii, and they're really not up to much.

Possibly but my Visigoth list only has one BG of light horse javelin , one of protected bow sword cavalry and one of protected lancers. This generally has been enough.

The problem a lot of players with weak mounted arms do is they try to take an opponents mounted on with their weaker mounted and lose. An army like EIR really should be using the mounted to support the foot and doing as much fighting with the legionaries as possible.

Indeed, probably the Roman Cavalry should be used only in a ZOI role to protect the flanks of the legions.

[shall]

sagji wrote:
It is also how you organise it.

I would be looking (guessing at costs)
6 BG of 4 armoured legionaries
3 BG of 4 armoured MF axuilaries
no supporitng archers.
1 BG of 6 or 8 LF Bow
2 BG of 4 MF Bow
1 BG 4 Catafracts
2 BG of 4 Armoured Cavalry
Camp
3 TCs

If there are points left and you spend it on a FC make him a sub-general - so he doesn't add to the Pre battle initiave - moving first is more usefull than deploying first and choosing approach.


Thanks for that, I'll use at a basis for an army soon. As it stands, though, without the generals it comes to 734pts, and an FC is compulsory, making 784pts, and so not enough for a second general.

It does hint at what I suspect, though: that my usual lack of cavalry doesn't help. I generally take 4 each of Numidian Light Horse, and Equites Sagitarii, and they're really not up to much.

Phil,

based on my experience of using Romans and playing them....

Keep the design historical - it will not do so well otherwise IMHO. I would drop 1 cav and add more legionaries if I could to the above.

The key to winning games is - as was historical - to force the battle with the legionaries and use support troops as support troops

This means working on the tiiming and speed of the army - move quickly to make sure the 3 MU legionaries can get stuck into something and have time to finish the job

Pick a good target, time the fight so that the legions tend to start the battle for you and make the oppsition work hard to do anything else (hence I suspect early days are less good than once you are fully up to speed with a Roman army as speed of play will affect it more than most)

Coordination of BGs - the legionaries need to fight with 2 BGs together for maximum effect

I think one of the urges with AOW is to get stuck in but what matters is to get stuck in with the right bits first when using a Roman army. It also pays to stay fairly compact so legionaries are alwyas near any tough fights.

So combine speed and patience and see what happens..

Course you may be doing all this already.....

Si

[plewis66]

Thanks all. Plenty of food for thought here. I'll give a few things a try for a few more games before giving up and switching to a mounted bow army!

[spike]

I played Phil on Monday night using Foderate Roman so have seen what he uses. A simple report to come later
Hammy is correct, Phil is using out of date lists, as he believed that he was restricted to very few Cav plus Numidians and Equites Sagitarii.

There was no terrain in the centre of the table, which left his MF exposed to attack by mounted, He also deployed them early, so I was able to ensure this would happen.

Phil can always take the option of making some of his Auxillia HF, as Average HF, Arm, Dr, LS, Swd to remove this vunrability.

[rbodleyscott]

Phil can always take the option of making some of his Auxillia HF, as Average HF, Arm, Dr, LS, Swd to remove this vunrability.

It must be all Auxilia HF or all MF. You can't take a mixture. If this is not clear in the current lists, it will be clear in the published lists.

It represents a choice of interpretation of the evidence, not a choice of battlefield formation.

BTW I have found it prudent to deploy my MF last.