Classical Greek list question

christospap · Post by **christospap** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:42 pm

Hello everyone,

I'm trying to set up a Spartan list (pre-460) and I have the follwing question:

If the whole army is Spartan (without any allies included), can this army contain BGs of non-upgraded generic hoplites, without an allied general? Meaning, the army would only have 3 Spartan generals commanding a number of pure Spartan BGs (drilled), and a number of basic (undrilled) generic hoplites.

My hunch would be that, since generic "Hoplites" are not restricted to a certain origin, they can be part of the C-in-C's direct chain of command, without having to buy an allied general to command them. The opposite of course is not true: troops that ARE restricted to a certain origin, do need their own general to guide them.

But, looking at the list, I do not feel so sure any more. Your views please?
Christos

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:46 pm

Any Classical Greek list can take generic hoplites. As Spartans you can upgrade some to drilled Perioikoi and some to Spartan Citizens.

Just a suggestion... you probably want some drilled avg to anchor flanks able to turn at will, but the undrilled hoplites are great for most of the battle line... their job primarily being to slog forward.

ravenflight · Post by **ravenflight** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:18 pm

yes, what imanfasil said is correct.

Your basic hoplite living in Spartan territory is Average/Undrilled/Proteced/Offensive Spearman.

Some can be upgraded to Perioikoi as Average/Drilled/Protected/Offensive Spearmen.

Some can be upgrated to Spartiates as Superior/Drilled/Protected/Offensive Spearmen.

So, in answer to your question... yes

bahdahbum · Post by **bahdahbum** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:38 pm

I might be wrong but I do not agree . Classical greek armies are citizen's armies . Citizen's of Sparta had their own amry made of spartan citizens , not of other nations citizens .

Soin my own opinion , a spartan army has to be drilled and the undrilled troops represent allies , so you must have an ally general .

And I might add if you take a look at the starters armies, it looks as if I am right

But we might wait for the opinion of those who made the rules and books

shadowdragon · Post by **shadowdragon** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:00 pm

bahdahbum wrote:I might be wrong but I do not agree . Classical greek armies are citizen's armies . Citizen's of Sparta had their own amry made of spartan citizens , not of other nations citizens .

Soin my own opinion , a spartan army has to be drilled and the undrilled troops represent allies , so you must have an ally general .

And I might add if you take a look at the starters armies, it looks as if I am right

But we might wait for the opinion of those who made the rules and books

Possibly you're right, but there were states under Spartan hegemony that weren't helots or periokoi, but how much say did they have in foreign affairs. Peloponnesean cities Mycenae provided field "contingents" during the Plataea campaign, but I don't think they had enough troops to warrant an "allied" commander.

Anyway, I've wondered the same, but still the lists don't specifically prevent assigning generic troops to specific national commanders.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:05 pm

A reading of the list says there must be at least 6 Citizen and at least 12 perioikoi hoplites if the CinC is Spartan, but it does not say all must be so upgraded. So average undrilled are allowed.