Towed Units

[evan748]

Hello,

First off thanks for an great game. I'm really enjoying Panzer Corps (loved PG).

My questions are regarding towed units...

1. How does terrain effect towed units in combat (do i want my towed units in clear or close terrain)?

2. Does artillery shoot against the targets air defense rating?

3. Apart from the famous 88mm which AA units can switch to ground attack?

Thanks.

- Evan -

[Molve]

1. You want them entrenched, is the answer!

As long as regular defense values are higher than close defense values, the ideal position is outside of close terrain (such as pre-entrenched clear positions) when your defense is the most important consideration. Of course, this is highly theoretical, because if your unit lacks a good attack value (say for transports and artillery) its toast anyway.

When your attack is relevant (for towed AT, say) you're probably better off in close terrain, since your foes usually lose much more by going from regular to close defense values than your unit does. Going from defense 2 to defense 0 is almost always a price worth paying if you're being attacked by a tank going from perhaps defense 10 to defense 1. Especially since terrains where you use your close defense rating is also the terrains where you can entrench.

So the relevant answer is: close terrain...

2. No, the air defense rating is against attacks coming from air units.

3. A small number of Soviet late-war mechanized AT units. Don't have the complete list.

For instance, the SU-76, ISU-122 and SU-152. Mind you, they're switching between artillery and AT, not AA and AT.

[evan748]

1. You want them entrenched, is the answer!

As long as regular defense values are higher than close defense values, the ideal position is outside of close terrain (such as pre-entrenched clear positions) when your defense is the most important consideration. Of course, this is highly theoretical, because if your unit lacks a good attack value (say for transports and artillery) its toast anyway.

When your attack is relevant (for towed AT, say) you're probably better off in close terrain, since your foes usually lose much more by going from regular to close defense values than your unit does. Going from defense 2 to defense 0 is almost always a price worth paying if you're being attacked by a tank going from perhaps defense 10 to defense 1. Especially since terrains where you use your close defense rating is also the terrains where you can entrench.

So the relevant answer is: close terrain...

2. No, the air defense rating is against attacks coming from air units.

3. A small number of Soviet late-war mechanized AT units. Don't have the complete list.

For instance, the SU-76, ISU-122 and SU-152. Mind you, they're switching between artillery and AT, not AA and AT.

Thanks,

My dad suggested that artillery would shoot against air defense rating which when i thought about it makes perfect sense (being shelled is a lot more like being bombed then being assaulted by enemy tanks or infantry) but you are right it shoots against ground defense. (so sturmpanzer gets to be shot up by 15inch guns rather then then my howitzer).

I was under the impression only infantry shoots against close defense rating? The entrenchment though is a good idea regardless... Thanks i hadnt payed much attention to that statistic.

- Evan -

[Xerkis]

My dad suggested that artillery would shoot against air defense rating which when i thought about it makes perfect sense (being shelled is a lot more like being bombed then being assaulted by enemy tanks or infantry) but you are right it shoots against ground defense. (so sturmpanzer gets to be shot up by 15inch guns rather then then my howitzer).

Interesting concept – and I think worth the debate.
Thinking about it – it is more like an air attack then a ground attack.

[El_Condoro]

You can shoot at a plane but not an incoming artillery shell. My understanding is that AD assumes an ability to retaliate; GD is the unit's ability to dodge, hide, otherwise avoid or withstand the incoming damage.

[Xerkis]

You can shoot at a plane but not an incoming artillery shell. My understanding is that AD assumes an ability to retaliate; GD is the unit's ability to dodge, hide, otherwise avoid or withstand the incoming damage.

If I understand your logic, then you are saying it is easier to defend against an air attack then it would be for an arty bombardment.
If that is true then defending against an arty should have the lower defense value. But it now goes after the ground defense; which is higher than the air defense (looking at Wehmacht).

I think you are correct though. Getting out of the way of an air attack would be easier than an artillery attack. At least there might be more of a forewarning.

.... or am I looking at what you are saying backwards?

[evan748]

You can shoot at a plane but not an incoming artillery shell. My understanding is that AD assumes an ability to retaliate; GD is the unit's ability to dodge, hide, otherwise avoid or withstand the incoming damage.

Ahh ok... I guess it wouldn't make much sense that mountain infantry and grenadiers can magically reduce damage from being shelled (high air defense).

In the case of the howitzer vs the sturmpanzer being shelled i agree with dad though that the sturmpanzer would be the more vulnerable of the two to artillery fire (higher off the ground and harder to dig in).

Do towed units dig in faster then self propelled?
- If they don't perhaps letting towed units dig in faster(like infantry?) would be a good way to model this?


I'm no expert on the game mechanics so this might already be how they work...

- Evan -

Edit: though shouldn't ability to retaliate be [air attack in brackets] eg: my FW-Gs taking as much damage as they deal from american tanks (/rage)... =P

[Molve]

My dad suggested that artillery would shoot against air defense rating which when i thought about it makes perfect sense (being shelled is a lot more like being bombed then being assaulted by enemy tanks or infantry) but you are right it shoots against ground defense. (so sturmpanzer gets to be shot up by 15inch guns rather then then my howitzer).

I was under the impression only infantry shoots against close defense rating? The entrenchment though is a good idea regardless... Thanks i hadnt payed much attention to that statistic.

- Evan -

Sturmpanzer is a hard unit, meaning that it is armored. You will find that most artillery units have higher soft attacks than hard attacks, leading to the very sensible result that artillery is much more effective against infantry (and other soft targets, such as towed units) than tanks and other metal beasts (including the Sturmpanzer).

Infantry shoots against close defense... in close terrain (cities, swamps, forest etc).

Artillery have always (already in the original Panzer General game) been considered a land attack. So it's always been either soft or hard attack vs ground defense. I'm sure the game could work even if artillery was considered an air attack, but that's simply never been the case...

[Xerkis]

Artillery have always (already in the original Panzer General game) been considered a land attack. So it's always been either soft or hard attack vs ground defense. I'm sure the game could work even if artillery was considered an air attack, but that's simply never been the case...

Absolutely true.

But should it be considered more of an “air attack”?
I’ve been arguing with myself on the question and now am not sure which way makes the most sense.