Balaton a bit of a rant Like the game really
Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design
Balaton a bit of a rant Like the game really
Well I have played PG for many years and I have played PK, east coast, ardenes , normandy , sicily , kursk , moscow 43 , all on colonel or higher and I have to say Balaton is a stinker .I have played this game 25 times ,I have come close 1 or 2 turns of victoty but I can quite crak it . The German equipment sucks except for tiger 2 , elephant , and jagpanthers in some situations . The german fighters are good but to few the strategic bombers in this game really suck waste of points excet to stop impair reinforcement . The infantry is not bad and can defent terrain well Arty is good against infantry ,I must be missing something dont know what but the Mass and quality of russian equipment is just too much for the germans to handle . I would say panzer jag 4's ( with long 75) are truely underated in this game , stugs suck aswell .The infantry lacks good AT weapons against the mass of su 100's which have got to be one of the best units in the game ( better than jagpanther i think) . any just MHO any help would be appreciated. thanks Patrick
Focusing on your main issue:
Yeah, I found Balaton also very hard to win. The thing is to get there you need campaign path wise a decisive victory at Overlord.
But this will probably happen a lot if a player starts the 1943 West campaign and still manage to achieve a decisive victory at Overlord.
Maybe that's the point of this scenario: You are beaten and the whole offensive is folly and it will require a lot of quality tanks and luck besides skill to pull it off. I would say it is indeed a very hard scenario. Maybe too hard? I will compare it to the "bloody Bagration" once I played it.
For now we should gather some feedback from other players about it.
I am not sure but IIRC Kerensky replaced the T-34 in this scenarios with SU's because some players found it too easy...
Yeah, I found Balaton also very hard to win. The thing is to get there you need campaign path wise a decisive victory at Overlord.
But this will probably happen a lot if a player starts the 1943 West campaign and still manage to achieve a decisive victory at Overlord.
Maybe that's the point of this scenario: You are beaten and the whole offensive is folly and it will require a lot of quality tanks and luck besides skill to pull it off. I would say it is indeed a very hard scenario. Maybe too hard? I will compare it to the "bloody Bagration" once I played it.
For now we should gather some feedback from other players about it.
I am not sure but IIRC Kerensky replaced the T-34 in this scenarios with SU's because some players found it too easy...
Your concerns have been mirrored quite often, and it's something we're well aware of when approaching future content.
Some of the late war scenarios were designed to be historic in nature(if not unit composition) in other words, the German isn't exactly supposed to win.
However we agree there are better ways to approach this.
Oh and for the record, I most definitely did not replace T34s with higher end units. I am a very strong advocate for more and more useful medium tanks.
Some of the late war scenarios were designed to be historic in nature(if not unit composition) in other words, the German isn't exactly supposed to win.
However we agree there are better ways to approach this.
Oh and for the record, I most definitely did not replace T34s with higher end units. I am a very strong advocate for more and more useful medium tanks.
-
flakfernrohr
- Colonel - Ju 88A
- Posts: 1572
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:56 pm
- Location: Texas
I made some German and Russian Penal units by cloning other regular HW infantry for German and Guards units of Russian in one scenario. All I did was rename them so I would recognize them and then I raised the initiative level to what might be considered almost suicidal just for fun and played these out. Was I SURPRISED! Talk about kick butt units of infantry! I only throw this in this thread because you can tweak units a little or a lot to offset some of the imbalance that exists in some scenarios. Until then I had no inkling of how much a little tweak can make a run of the mill or pretty good unit really a bunch of killers. When you think they are going to get wiped out in an attack, they end up either totally wiping the opposite side out or inflicting huge casualties.
I would use the same German Penal unit at 10-12 strength against an entrenched to 4 or 5 factor Russian unit at 10 strength down to 4 or 5 maybe and even sometimes more. I tested this against the Russian infantry entrenched near the SUMY section of the Kursk battlefield. A pleasant surprise.
I did the same thing with some tank and AT units and only raised the initiative a notch or two and what a difference in the outcome of the individual engagement with another unit! Totally different than the regular game.
We all like a challenge, but if you give these units more courage/desperation, they can accomplish much more it seems. You might try this with Balaton. The Germans were pretty desperate by then historically speaking.
I would use the same German Penal unit at 10-12 strength against an entrenched to 4 or 5 factor Russian unit at 10 strength down to 4 or 5 maybe and even sometimes more. I tested this against the Russian infantry entrenched near the SUMY section of the Kursk battlefield. A pleasant surprise.
I did the same thing with some tank and AT units and only raised the initiative a notch or two and what a difference in the outcome of the individual engagement with another unit! Totally different than the regular game.
We all like a challenge, but if you give these units more courage/desperation, they can accomplish much more it seems. You might try this with Balaton. The Germans were pretty desperate by then historically speaking.
Old Timer Panzer General fan. Maybe a Volksturm soldier now. Did they let Volksturm drive Panzers?
I understand and wouldn't want to have it any other way.Kerensky wrote:Some of the late war scenarios were designed to be historic in nature(if not unit composition) in other words, the German isn't exactly supposed to win.
If you define "win" as completely slaughtering the invading Red Army and taking all victory hexes, that is!
(If you do pull off such a win, you will not expect to have to defend Berlin (or similar) - you will expect to drive through to victory (of some sorts). In the Lake Balaton scenario, for instance, re-liberating Budapest (and obliterating the entire Ukrainian Front) would be huge.)
However, what probably should be done is change what a "win" means on these maps. In the extreme case, having a single (core) unit survive; or holding onto a single victory hex; would be a more appropriate "win" condition in these cases. As the player, you understand that such "wins" only buys time to delay the inevitable, and that the war is still lost. But wasn't that exactly why the Germans fought at this point? AND more importantly the specific scenario remains winnable - the game is after all a GAME that needs fun and achievable objectives.
In short, YOUR objectives (as a game player) should not be confused for the (completely unrealistic) real-life objectives of the specific late-war German offensives.
You need to be able to win without suggesting that the Red Army is suddenly completely broken, without wondering if the path to "Moscow '46" hasn't just been re-opened.
Since Lake Balaton was an "offensive", I suggest the following:
1) First, the scenario demands that by Turn X you have conquered at least one victory hex. Failure to do so means losing the scenario early.
The idea being not only to mimic the historic offensive, but more prosaically to ensure you commit your best units, triggering losses that makes the second half of the scenario not a cake-walk.
2) Then, the scenario simply checks if you have any core units left. When you don't, you lose.
A more meticulous design should probably designate the mountains to the west and south as a separate zone in which your units doesn't count. I mean, the goal here isn't to flee and have ineffectual remnants still exist at scenario end; but to remain as a fighting force (that either blocks the path to Vienna directly, or ties down enough forces that prevents the Russians from moving on).
3) If you manage to not lose the scenario until the end, you win.
These conditions I believe are all achievable by a simple scenario redesign (no code patching needed). Am I correct?
The idea here is that a "win" means 1) doing better than the real-life germans while the pretense of offensive is still maintained, and 2) not collapsing when the Russian counter-offensive gains the upper hand, or at least collapsing "slower" than in real-life.
In my mind, this would be a satisfyingly winnable scenario that doesn't completely enter the realm of the fantastical, like what a "decisive victory" means today!
1) First, the scenario demands that by Turn X you have conquered at least one victory hex. Failure to do so means losing the scenario early.
The idea being not only to mimic the historic offensive, but more prosaically to ensure you commit your best units, triggering losses that makes the second half of the scenario not a cake-walk.
2) Then, the scenario simply checks if you have any core units left. When you don't, you lose.
A more meticulous design should probably designate the mountains to the west and south as a separate zone in which your units doesn't count. I mean, the goal here isn't to flee and have ineffectual remnants still exist at scenario end; but to remain as a fighting force (that either blocks the path to Vienna directly, or ties down enough forces that prevents the Russians from moving on).
3) If you manage to not lose the scenario until the end, you win.
These conditions I believe are all achievable by a simple scenario redesign (no code patching needed). Am I correct?
The idea here is that a "win" means 1) doing better than the real-life germans while the pretense of offensive is still maintained, and 2) not collapsing when the Russian counter-offensive gains the upper hand, or at least collapsing "slower" than in real-life.
In my mind, this would be a satisfyingly winnable scenario that doesn't completely enter the realm of the fantastical, like what a "decisive victory" means today!