Completing The Full FOG Series – suggestions for a way forwa

Hoplite1963 · Post by **Hoplite1963** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:34 pm

I see from the recent postings in “Field Of Glory Road Map” that Slitherine might face some issues in making the release of all the FOG modules with their original content a bit difficult to justify commercially.

As I would like to see the release of all the FOG and FOG Renaissance modules I thought it might be helpful to air some suggestions as to ways round this problem. After all its in all out interests for Slitherine' to do well commercially out of the series so that they stay in business and go on to do a whole range of products on the same lines such as FOG Renaissance and FOG Napoleonic’s, not to mention “FOG Age Of Rifles” and “FOG Age Of Reason”.

One way of looking at the problem is to break down the modules remaining to be done into categories, based on the extent to which they can draw on work (mainly figure images) that has already been done for the game. In my view the split would look like this

Category 1 = Modules where most of the images needed already exist.

“Decline & Fall”
“Wolves From The Sea”
“Oath of Fealty”

Category 2 = Modules where some of the existing images can be used but where quite a number of new ones will be needed

“Swifter than Eagles” = We already have most of the Egyptians and the start of the Assyrians
“Lost Scrolls” = We already have quite a few images that can be used for the Mediaeval and Ancient Italian armies

Category 3 = Modules which will need an overwhelmingly new set of images

“Empires of the Dragon”
“Blood and Gold”

Its also worth noting that assuming that FOG Renaissance goes ahead that there would be a lot of image overlap between many of the post 1000AD armies needed for “Empires of the Dragon” and those for the FOG Renaissance “Colonies and Conquest” module while virtually all the images that would be needed for the FOG “Blood and Gold” module would also be needed for a FOG Renaissance “Cities of Gold” expansion pack

This being the case the following 10 point plan is perhaps worth considering

1. “Decline & Fall” & “Wolves From The Sea” are in any case the next two modules due to come out. Use the fact that you will not need to do a full 200 extra new images (which is about what normally comes out with an expansion pack) for each of these packs, to do some more of the images needed (we already have the Egyptians and the start of the Assyrian ) for Swifter than Eagles. For example by completing the existing Assyrian images in “Decline & Fall” and setting up a set of Bronze Age Greek ones with “Wolves From The Sea”.

2.To offset the fact that not as many new images will come out dedicated to the armies in “Decline & Fall” & “Wolves From The Sea”, advertise for and start incorporating into these two modules, modified unit images created from existing ones by owners of the game in programs such as Photoshop, in the same way as you have been making use of user created scenarios. This will sit particularly well with the planned “Custom Battle Groups” facility which is due to be released in the near future. There are a lot of images already available (particularly many that came out with “Legions Triumphant” and “Eternal Empire” that could be customised to increase the range of Dark Age troops.

3. Move on to “Swifter than Eagles” as planned and do 200 new images along with most, if not all of the DAG armies from the book, however also release a “DAG Builder” application with the module (which should be incorporated in all later FOG modules but not retrofitted to earlier ones.

4. Move on to “Oath of Fealty” and use the fact that you won’t need to provide 200 new images to make a start on those needed for “Empires of the Dragon” doing a set of Han Chinese images.

5. Next do “Empires of the Dragon I” covering armies on the Asian mainland down to the fall of the Tang Dynasty in 906 AD. Leaving all later armies and Medieval Indonesian or Malay and Japanese ones out for the moment.

6. Skipping over “Blood and Gold” for the moment next release “Lost Scrolls” including some player designed DAG lists as will as all of those in the original book. Also use the fact that you will not need to use 200 new images for the original armies in this book to release a bumper set of player customised images as well as a simple campaign builder application (available only in this module) using something like the branching tree system used for the HPS games and / or the original “Age Of Rifles” game

7. Then go on to do the FOG Renaissance and its modules in the order that the books came out. When you get to “Trade and Treachery” you will be able to reuse a lot of the late medieval images now available for the FOG “Storm Of Arrows” module. The same will also be true when you get to “Clash of Empires” when a lot of the images now available for “Eternal Empire” will also be of use.

8. Once you reach the “Colonies and Conquest” module produce this in tandem with an “Empires of the Dragon Part II” module covering those later and off shore armies not covered in “Empires of the Dragon Part I”. This will create a lot of savings in painting and photographing many of the images used for both modules.

9. Likewise produce the FOG Renaissance “Cities of Gold” module in tandem with the FOG “Blood and Gold” on to complete the original FOG series perhaps adding some earlier African armies drawing on the new figures used for the “Cities of Gold” module.

10. The fact that DAG army lists would not be being published for “Empires of the Dragon II” & “Blood and Gold” until quite a time after a “DAG Builder” was released could be used to advantage by Slitherine by getting FOG owners to draft these in advance as has been done with Historical scenarios.

Of course there may be factors that I not aware of why some or all these ideas will not work, but I thought it was worth giving them an airing.

Any thoughts guys ?

Mnay thanks

Ian

Brigz · Post by **Brigz** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:29 pm

Some good suggestions, Ian.

As far as I'm concerned I'm mostly interested in “Decline & Fall”, “Wolves From The Sea”, “Oath of Fealty” and "Swifter than Eagles". Of these I'm most interested in "Swifter than Eagles." I would like to see these finished in their entirity as that would provide a pretty much complete structure from most ancient through medieval. Then the rest of the series could be dealt with as need be. Just my personal opinion.

Bladeheart · Post by **Bladeheart** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:36 pm

Of the expansions mentioned above, I must confess up front that 'Oath of Fealty' is the only one not currently advertised that I really want to see; my main interest is the Dark Age and Feudal periods, so that is not surprising.

Perhaps someone could expand upon what a 'DAG Builder' is envisaged to be please?

Hoplite1963 · Post by **Hoplite1963** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:30 pm

Hi

What I was envisaging here was an application that would enable you to create extra army lists of the kind found for its book published so far in the Digital Army Generator. This for example would enable you to create Athenian army list for the Peloponnesian war.

For what its worth some work has already been done her with a couple of list done en advance of the release of Lost Scrolls (Early Romans and Etruscan League) available on the “HOC EST BELLVM website, http://web.me.com/beringar/Hoc-est-bellum although for good technical reasons (I think they might cause the game to crash) the game has been currently set up not to allow them in to be run multiplayer.

Because of the way the multiplayer system works I think it might be a case of players using such an application to play them against the AI or hot seat on their own computer and then passing these over to Slitherine for release with an upgrade or expansion pack in the way that is currently done with scenarios. It might also be possible to share lists with another player via e-mail attachment and then play in multiplayer using it in a password protected game.

Regards
Ian

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:00 pm

Hoplite1963 wrote:Hi

What I was envisaging here was an application that would enable you to create extra army lists of the kind found for its book published so far in the Digital Army Generator. This for example would enable you to create Athenian army list for the Peloponnesian war.

For what its worth some work has already been done her with a couple of list done en advance of the release of Lost Scrolls (Early Romans and Etruscan League) available on the “HOC EST BELLVM website, http://web.me.com/beringar/Hoc-est-bellum although for good technical reasons (I think they might cause the game to crash) the game has been currently set up not to allow them in to be run multiplayer.

Because of the way the multiplayer system works I think it might be a case of players using such an application to play them against the AI or hot seat on their own computer and then passing these over to Slitherine for release with an upgrade or expansion pack in the way that is currently done with scenarios. It might also be possible to share lists with another player via e-mail attachment and then play in multiplayer using it in a password protected game.

Regards
Ian

I think you have inadvertantly touched on a reason why they likley WONT enable something along those lines. Why should they let you build your armies (whether for solo play or not) When they plan on releasing their own armies that you would need to pay for in future expnasions, even if they are only TBD. Also, those user made lists were blocked out by Slitherine several patches ago, likly for the reason above but also to pevent possible cheating in MP.

Some time ago in one of the many wishlist threads I offered an idea for an open ended DAG army, where you can build , say a 500 AP army based on the current points system with ANY unit from any expansion pack that you OWN.
Interestingly, Iain M commented on this and basically said no but what was interesting was really his reason why "no": Not, what I expected, which was it could jeapordize sales, but that players wouldnt like it because games could be "unbalanced" and they wuould have to listen to complaints from players that they are going into battles vs players with 25 Elephants or something , lol..

Hoplite1963 · Post by **Hoplite1963** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:22 pm

If Slitherine set things up so they had to approve user created DAG lists before they could be used in multiplayer many of these problems would be avoided.

I think that if as a community we want this game to deliver all the things we want then we are going to have to look for ways to take over some of burden of the work in those areas that would not be commercially viable for Slitherine . We therefore need to look for ways of doing so that don’t get in the way of Slitherine making money out of the series.

I think it should be possible to set up a DAG list template using the table function in Microsoft Word. I will have a go at this and then use it to put together some lists for armies from the time periods of existing FOG expansion packs such as “Immortal Fire” that have not been covered as they were not in the original goods such as for example the Army of the Phocian League for the “Scared War” in the 350’s BC (with its larger than normal numbers of artillery pieces) and se what sort of response I get when I put these forward.

CharlesRobinson · Post by **CharlesRobinson** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:49 pm

I don't think their problem is the armies, Osprey has already built the template. All Slitherine needs it to convert them and play test them. All the basics are already there either from Osprey or from the prior sets. I believe their real headache is actually the figures themselves. That is a lot of miniatures and a lot of painting and I am not sure you can even find miniatures for all of the armies. Your talking about a lot of conversion work. I also believe that they have been using the metal figures to produce the army graphics instead of the 20mm plastics, which are whole lot cheaper and easier to convert.

davouthojo · Post by **davouthojo** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:39 am

I think this is a great discussion for the community to participate in.

I am greatly invested in FOGPC, and would like to see it rise and rise. To do that there must be a commercial case for Slitherine to support too - they should not be a charity.

ASSUMPTIONS:
1) New expansions will bring very few new players in.
2) With the most popular ones done first, there will be an increasing drop out rate each time from the grognards until they are uneconomic for Slitherine.
3) FOGPC needs to bring in new players to be healthy in the long run (lets say 5 years)
4) There is a huge resource in the community that Slitherine can tap into to improve the attractiveness of the game. Leagues, Campaigns, Scenarios are all evidence for this
5) It is too late to switch to a monthly payment scheme

If Slitherine sticks to the current plan, FOGPC will have a slow fade.......a few more expansions, increasingly smaller uptake, not enough revenues for Slitherine to justify reinvestment in improving the game.
This need not be however - making money from the expansions is an old school TT publishing mindset, not appropriate for a 21C PC game

MY CONCLUSION

Abandon the model of making money on expansions

Open up FOGPC Ancients to the community, to keep us engaged and building the attractiveness of the game for free:
>Give us the tools to construct all the remaining lists and we will do it for free
>Ability to mod - Fall From Heaven gave CivIV a new lease of life

Invest development time in something that will bring in large chunks of new players, either
>FOG2
>FOGN (I love the idea of FOGR, but think it too minority era to do this job)
>Upgraded Singleplayer (PanzerCorps is a good singleplayer game, we would need a much better AI and linked campaign game)

A few thoughts to stir the pot........if Slitherine keep thinking incremental the fade is on..........

stockwellpete · Post by **stockwellpete** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:31 am

davouthojo wrote: There is a huge resource in the community that Slitherine can tap into to improve the attractiveness of the game. Leagues, Campaigns, Scenarios are all evidence for this

This is the key thing, isn't it? There have been some fantastic suggestions on the forum about the game during the year or so that I have been coming here.

I do think that one thing the Slitherine developers might be under-estimating a little bit is just how seriously a lot of us take our history and how enthusiastic we are about incorporating our historical knowledge into the game. And I don't think that making the game more historically "accurate" necessarily compromises the quality of game-play and enjoyment either. It doesn't necessarily make things more complicated either.

As an analogy, a lot of people loved the film "Braveheart". Unfortunately, it was a complete travesty of history. However, if the film had told the true story of Wallace and Robert the Bruce, it would have been an equally exciting story. This is kind of how I feel about FOG at the moment - it is a bit too "Braveheart" for my liking, if you see what I mean.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:04 am

Thanks for the ideas guys. We'll be looking at various options. We have the next 3 books already in production so they are guaranteed but the remaining ones will be reviewed in 6-12 months.

Bladeheart · Post by **Bladeheart** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:15 pm

Sorry if I'm being obtuse, been a long day. Is the third book in production 'Oath of Fealty'?

Old_Warrior · Post by **Old_Warrior** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:26 pm

Another thing for Slitherine to do (and Matrix for ALL of their games to be honest) is to initiate something similar to the P500 list like GMT Games has. That way they do not invest in a product that does not redeem the dough.

For instance: Ok, you want to see Cities of Gold done - Slitherine puts up a pre-order page for all modules. If the total amount of pre-sales on all of the modules can justify its production then do it. OR if the pre-order amonts for Cities of Gold on its own justifies its production then do it. Otherwise wait til later to see how things go. And the reason why I say this is the economy. Some folks cannot afford to buy every module as it comes out (Matrix and Slitherine putting out a ton of software these days and folks buying stuff other than FoG too).

I say let it run over a longer period of time. If the interest is there in five years then do the obscure ones. I really want the Empires of the Dragon module to be complete and would pay 30-35 bucks for it due to the extra armies that it has.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:40 pm

Hmm, doesnt the P500 only work for GMT for games already produced but out of print? They need to know x amount of orders will be in to justiyf the printing costs, gearing up the dies's , molds or whatever is involved. Also, you obviously need to front them the money , knowing full well you have spent 30 bucks for something that might not happen in 6 12 or 18 months, if at all. Its a good idea though , just not sure if PC gamers have the same patience as board gamers.

I personally would prefer to pay more to see the items I want but i can undertsand the concerns of why they wouldnt want to change their pricing model.

omarquatar · Post by **omarquatar** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:42 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote: Its a good idea though , just not sure if PC gamers have the same patience as board gamers.

I personally would prefer to pay more to see the items I want but i can undertsand the concerns of why they wouldnt want to change their pricing model.

i think a lot of players of THIS PC game are also boardgamers

Old_Warrior · Post by **Old_Warrior** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:02 pm

No, P500 is for all products including their C3i mag. Once they get enough orders they print it.

Yes, the concept is a bit different with PC games but hey if someone offers up a game idea to Matrix but no one wants to buy it ... why agree to take on the project?

stockwellpete · Post by **stockwellpete** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:34 pm

Bladeheart wrote:Sorry if I'm being obtuse, been a long day. Is the third book in production 'Oath of Fealty'?

My understanding is that all the books upto and including "Oath of Fealty" are in various stages of production and we will get them each quarter (roughly). Anything that comes after that though is in the "to be decided" category.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:05 am

The situation is quite different - developing the board game costs almost nothing, takes very little time and 95% of costs are manufacturing. If they manufacture the wrong amount they turn a success in to a loss.

PC games take months or years to develop, cost a lot to develop and we either manufacture in bulk for retail which is pretty cheap or on demand for the online stores which means we dont hold stock so no stock risk or minimum print numbers.

The issue is that they designe the game and have it ready to go in to production when they hit their number. Giving q lead time of a couple of months to get from their P500 to the customer haveing the game. We'd have to start work on the product when we hit the P500 number. There would be a minimum lead time of 6 months but likely a year to 2 years from then. By this time its unlikely the people who signed up would actually still want the game and complete the purchase.

Its a nice idea but I dont see it working for computer games as the model is so different.

The books HexWar are comitted to are:
Decline & Fall
Wolves from the Sea
Oath of Fealty

stockwellpete · Post by **stockwellpete** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:25 pm

iainmcneil wrote:
The books HexWar are comitted to are:
Decline & Fall
Wolves from the Sea
Oath of Fealty

OK, so "Swifter than Eagles" is being omitted - and that brings "Oath of Fealty" three months nearer.

Old_Warrior · Post by **Old_Warrior** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:44 pm

So are you saying that there is NO chance that Empires of the Dragon would be done or that as of NOW you are not planning on doing it but things could change?

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:49 pm

Anything can change but at the moment the cost of creating the armies for that book look prohibitively expensive.