Mechanics of retreat and surrender

[Vlobus]

I am a bit confused about the exact rules of retreat and surrender. What I thought so far is
1) a unit whose inflicted damage and surpression is greater than current strenght will retreat
2) a unit which cannot retreat will surrender
But, that seems not to be right. While playing I had the following situation.
An enemy infantry unit was fully supressed (5/5) and in the following attack one strength was killed. I would expect a surrender, since all adjacent tiles were blocked, but nothing happened. The unit was based on a fortification hex.
On the other hand, a unsurpressed artillery unit, which suffers heavy losses (8/10) will retreat/ surrender.

[Horseman]

I am a bit confused about the exact rules of retreat and surrender. What I thought so far is
1) a unit whose inflicted damage and surpression is greater than current strenght will retreat
2) a unit which cannot retreat will surrender
But, that seems not to be right. While playing I had the following situation.
An enemy infantry unit was fully supressed (5/5) and in the following attack one strength was killed. I would expect a surrender, since all adjacent tiles were blocked, but nothing happened. The unit was based on a fortification hex.
On the other hand, a unsurpressed artillery unit, which suffers heavy losses (8/10) will retreat/ surrender.

You're spot on with your thoughts but missed out 1 crucial factor

A unit with an entrenchment value of more than 0 will never retreat....and as the unit was in fortifications I'm guessing its entrenchment would be pretty high....

As to your artillery example if you bring up the combat log you'll probably find that whilst it lost 8 steps the other 2 were also surpressed in the attack sparking a retreat

[jaggy]

Hi, Horseman, where does the combat log reside? Thanks in advance.

[El_Condoro]

Press L after a combat. Or Ctrl-click a combat to get the projected results.

[Horseman]

Hi, Horseman, where does the combat log reside? Thanks in advance.

What he said

L will bring up the last combat log and will show you the math behind the result...

[MartyWard]

O.T. but someone might be able to answer it. I thought I saw a posting either here or over at Matrix where you could view the scenario stats, number and type of losses etc. How is it possible to get these to display?

[Xerkis]

O.T. but someone might be able to answer it. I thought I saw a posting either here or over at Matrix where you could view the scenario stats, number and type of losses etc. How is it possible to get these to display?

I think "C" is what you are after.

Also, this might be the thread you mention
viewtopic.php?t=25990

[MartyWard]

O.T. but someone might be able to answer it. I thought I saw a posting either here or over at Matrix where you could view the scenario stats, number and type of losses etc. How is it possible to get these to display?

I think "C" is what you are after.

Also, this might be the thread you mention
viewtopic.php?t=25990

That looks like it. I'll give it a whirl tonight. Thanks.

[Vlobus]

Thanks Horseman, that helps a lot. I started the Manstein campaign and would be lost, without that knowledge.
Just One thing, I noticed that units with an entranchment level of 1 do retreat. I assume they loose that level while fighting, and after the fight it is checked weather the unit retreats. That can make a real difference on the battlefield

[Horseman]

Thanks Horseman, that helps a lot. I started the Manstein campaign and would be lost, without that knowledge.
Just One thing, I noticed that units with an entranchment level of 1 do retreat. I assume they loose that level while fighting, and after the fight it is checked weather the unit retreats. That can make a real difference on the battlefield

Yes each attack reduces entrenchment by 1 so if they have 1 entrenchemnt before the attack they will have 0 at the end of it and thus be eligable for retreat

[Molve]

In other words, if a unit's entrenchment value is 2 or higher, it simply will not retreat in the next battle?

[El_Condoro]

In the next attack, that's right. If two attacks occurred, there is a possibility that the second attack would cause the unit to retreat.

[Razz1]

I believe a unit will never retreat from a city.

[TheGrayMouser]

I believe a unit will never retreat from a city.

They do, just had it happen.

[Horseman]

I believe a unit will never retreat from a city.

They do, just had it happen.

Yeh I've had it happen many times...its just harder as they'll normally be quite well entrenched

[Molve]

In the next attack, that's right.

Thanks

If two attacks occurred, there is a possibility that the second attack would cause the unit to retreat.

Of course

[Molve]

I believe a unit will never retreat from a city.

I think this observation, while untrue, is simply a reflection of the fact that odds are the unit will be completely destroyed long before its completely out of entrenchment.

[Molve]

While on the subject, two further clarifications:

1) does bombing also reduce entrenchment (like in PG)?
a) artillery strikes?
b) tactical bomber runs?
c) strat bomber runs?

Can bombing reduce entrenchment below the base entrenchment value of the terrain hex (I don't believe it could in PG)? Another way to phrase this question is "is there any way short of actually making a ground attack that reduces entrenchment below the base terrain value?".
This would then explain the idea "infantry in cities never retreat" since for that to happen it must first survive two ground attacks and then survive a third AND be completely suppressed. A scenario that does happen, but can be very unlikely, unless you specifically want it to happen (by preceding that third attack with new suppressing bombardment)

2) It does not seem a unit loses its entrenchment if it itself attacks? (It's not uncommon to be presented with the temptation to take out an enemy unit that was badly mauled; I normally hesitate doing so based on my Panzer General memories. But now it seems I am needlessly cautious...?)

[Horseman]

While on the subject, two further clarifications:

1) does bombing also reduce entrenchment (like in PG)?
a) artillery strikes?
b) tactical bomber runs?
c) strat bomber runs?

Can bombing reduce entrenchment below the base entrenchment value of the terrain hex (I don't believe it could in PG)? Another way to phrase this question is "is there any way short of actually making a ground attack that reduces entrenchment below the base terrain value?".
This would then explain the idea "infantry in cities never retreat" since for that to happen it must first survive two ground attacks and then survive a third AND be completely suppressed. A scenario that does happen, but can be very unlikely, unless you specifically want it to happen (by preceding that third attack with new suppressing bombardment)

2) It does not seem a unit loses its entrenchment if it itself attacks? (It's not uncommon to be presented with the temptation to take out an enemy unit that was badly mauled; I normally hesitate doing so based on my Panzer General memories. But now it seems I am needlessly cautious...?)

Every attack on a hex reduces entrenchent...and yes it will go below the base level of the terrain and only rised by 1 a turn...so you can slowly erode a units entrenchment over several turns if desired. This was the same mechanic used in PG

I've not noticed if attackers lose a level of entrenchment or not but as you'll get 1 back at the end of your turn you may as well take the oppurtunities!

[Xerkis]

1) does bombing also reduce entrenchment (like in PG)?

It’s the real purpose of tactical and strat bombers – to reduce the entrenchment. But from time to time you do get to drop a unit’s strength as well. Send the planes on ahead to soften your target a few turns while your ground units are still on the march getting there.