Hoplites, and crying in the wind ...

[brianw]

Hello all,
I expect something to be done about my observation & complaint - about as much as I expect the world will stop and rotate in the opposite direction....however -

I must say that I love playing Immortal Fire. Greek Hoplite Armies vs Persian's.
And I must say that I am an avid reader of history (Herodotus, Thucydides, & Xenophon - as well as contemporary historians).
However, I observe that - contrary to history -in typical game encounters of Hoplite Heavy Infantry vs Persian Medium Infantry - hoplites get slaughtered (usually) on the First rounds of combat (often as much as 75-100 out of a unit of a typical unit of only 300).

I assume that this is because of heavy infantry vs missile troop rules. However, it is completely unhistorical. Battles like Marathon never happened that way.

What I am trying to suggest is that something is amiss in the combat results matrix....

Any chance of looking into this?

[batesmotel]

Are you using armoured hoplites or protected? Armoured are more appropriate for the period Herodotus describes and generally should do much better than protected against the Persians.

Chris

[brianw]

Hi, armored hoplites (often Spartan armored hoplites as well).
And on custom games - even heavily armored hoplites (modified) - still usually get the same result on the first round of combat - no matter which side initiates combat.
Typically 45 hoplites (and as high as 75-100) on the first round, though the subsequent rounds will usually go the hoplites way.

Are you using armoured hoplites or protected? Armoured are more appropriate for the period Herodotus describes and generally should do much better than protected against the Persians.

Chris

[batesmotel]

Hi, armored hoplites (often Spartan armored hoplites as well).
And on custom games - even heavily armored hoplites (modified) - still usually get the same result on the first round of combat - no matter which side initiates combat.
Typically 45 hoplites (and as high as 75-100) on the first round, though the subsequent rounds will usually go the hoplites way.

Are you using armoured hoplites or protected? Armoured are more appropriate for the period Herodotus describes and generally should do much better than protected against the Persians.

Chris

This sounds rather high. How many Persians are being lost in response? If their losses are equally high then it may just mean that the losses on both sides are high. Impact does slightly favor the Persians since each side is at +PoA. The advantage to the Persians is an adidtional support shooting attacks which only hit on a 6 versus armoured hoplites so not likely to cause more additional hits. Basically if the hoplites survive the impact without disrupting, the Persians should lose the melee. Imortals are down 1 PoA in melee and other protected MF are down 2 PoA.

Chris

[brianw]

Hi, well typically - I see Persians getting anywhere from 33 to 60 hoplites ON THE 1st ROUND OF MELEE - no matter which side initiates combat, while Hoplites typically will get 16 - 40 Persians in return. (in other words - on the first melee round, it's almost always in the Persians favor by a rate of about 2:1.... but not subsequent rounds).

Now, on the second round of melee and thereafter - Armored Hoplites can be relied on to win almost ALL subsequent rounds of melee.

My only issue/problem is that it just doesn't seem right that armored hoplites would seem to consistently almost always loose the 1st round of melee - sometimes by staggering amounts.

Now you asked how many Persians are involved in relation to hoplites -
I normally play default generated battles with around 500 points per side...so point wise the forces are equal though the Persian will have more manpower (units) on the field...maybe by 50% or sometimes greater.

I have noticed that once units are in melee - neither side can shoot into melee - so that appears not to be a factor.

I would also note that Immortals are rated as "Armored" just as Armored Hoplites...yet even the Immortals had significantly less armor in real life - as compared to a typical armored hoplite of circa 500 BC.

I know I'm whining about trivialities in the greater scheme of things in the game, but it's just frustrating to me to always see more of my hoplites become casualties in the first round of combat (with a force of say only 3000 men) than the Athenians lost in the entire battle of Marathon or the Greeks lost at Thermopylae. Again these are only relatively small battles of Infantry vs Infantry...where Greek Hoplites dominated the Persians (and most everyone else at the time).

Like I said - I know I'm just crying in the wind...but it just doesn't seem accurate....
And sorry for the whining - you must get tired of this kind of complaining

Hi, armored hoplites (often Spartan armored hoplites as well).
And on custom games - even heavily armored hoplites (modified) - still usually get the same result on the first round of combat - no matter which side initiates combat.
Typically 45 hoplites (and as high as 75-100) on the first round, though the subsequent rounds will usually go the hoplites way.

Are you using armoured hoplites or protected? Armoured are more appropriate for the period Herodotus describes and generally should do much better than protected against the Persians.

Chris

This sounds rather high. How many Persians are being lost in response? If their losses are equally high then it may just mean that the losses on both sides are high. Impact does slightly favor the Persians since each side is at +PoA. The advantage to the Persians is an adidtional support shooting attacks which only hit on a 6 versus armoured hoplites so not likely to cause more additional hits. Basically if the hoplites survive the impact without disrupting, the Persians should lose the melee. Imortals are down 1 PoA in melee and other protected MF are down 2 PoA.

Chris

[stockwellpete]

Brian, anything that can add to the historical accuracy of this game is worth lobbying for. The more people who add their voices the better because sometimes changes are made to the game.

[mschund]

keep in mind the Persians inflict "closing fire" in the first round of melee in addition to close combat casualties...