Official 'beef about massed (cheap) bows' thread

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:51 pm

For Delbruck & Footslogger.....

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:58 pm

*Has always wondered why it's a beef and not a pork or chicken or...*

johngl · Post by **johngl** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:02 pm

What's the problem with massed bows? Should I be taking the maximum in my Henry VIII army? So far they haven't been brilliant, and I'm planning to take the minimum for this week's game.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:01 pm

johngl wrote:What's the problem with massed bows? Should I be taking the maximum in my Henry VIII army? So far they haven't been brilliant, and I'm planning to take the minimum for this week's game.

I don't think there is a problem. Somebody just found out that they are less rubbish than they expected and need to be treated with respect.

footslogger · Post by **footslogger** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:43 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
johngl wrote:What's the problem with massed bows? Should I be taking the maximum in my Henry VIII army? So far they haven't been brilliant, and I'm planning to take the minimum for this week's game.
I don't think there is a problem. Somebody just found out that they are less rubbish than they expected and need to be treated with respect.

My guess is Richard is probably right. I just suggested they be banned from Bob's "open" tournament as a different arbitrary thing to ban.

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:52 pm

From what I heard at H-Con over here people were suprised at how effective the Qing Chinese were, with up to 9 dice per unit at close range destroying pike & shot units, in an army especially designed to combat pike & shot. Add in they are a 4 v most troop types, and the effective range is 4" not 3, they do look a bargain.

johngl · Post by **johngl** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:19 pm

Hmmm... perhaps instead of hiring landsknechts Henry VIII should field 6 x 8 longbowmen BGs! I have plenty of Wars of the Roses figures.

Delbruck · Post by **Delbruck** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:10 pm

Scrumpy wrote:From what I heard at H-Con over here people were suprised at how effective the Qing Chinese were, with up to 9 dice per unit at close range destroying pike & shot units, in an army especially designed to combat pike & shot. Add in they are a 4 v most troop types, and the effective range is 4" not 3, they do look a bargain.

The Qinq had the added advantage of regt guns, and free light spear for 1/2 each BG. The light spear are good against cavalry and some other infantry.

Gee, I don't remember staring this thead

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:06 pm

John

I have a Henry VIII army but I don't plan to use the Longbow against Continental opposition. However if you fancy putting a 1513 Henry army with no Landsknechts up against my 1513 French with Swiss I am free for a game any time...

johngl · Post by **johngl** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:38 pm

My 1544 English will be taking on Ottomans on Wednesday. They include all the mercenaries I can hire - landsknechts, reiters, arquebusiers... I'm not convinced that the bows are any good - but I've played only four FoGR games so far.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:57 pm

The massed bow is that with enough dice and logner range they have an effect.

As said the Qing also had light spears and regimental guns.

As observation the people who go creamed by this often were getting themselves in situations where 2 BGs were shooting at one. So yes 18 dice are going to do damage.

The Qing also used terrain effectively.

At a superficial glance no one had a real battle plan other to advance and find out how efective the bow shooting was.

khurasan_miniatures · Post by **khurasan_miniatures** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:16 pm

This is very encouraging as I'm about to commission Qing!

Only problem I'm having is finding good sources for the appearance of the Green Standard/Chinese-martial infantry. I don't believe the masses of Han Chinese troops ran about in the brigandine armour, but I also can't find (so far) any evidence that the dress so well known from the 19th C was used as far back as the 17th ....

Delbruck · Post by **Delbruck** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:53 pm

hazelbark wrote:The massed bow is that with enough dice and logner range they have an effect.

As said the Qing also had light spears and regimental guns.

As observation the people who go creamed by this often were getting themselves in situations where 2 BGs were shooting at one. So yes 18 dice are going to do damage.

The Qing also used terrain effectively.

At a superficial glance no one had a real battle plan other to advance and find out how efective the bow shooting was.

The problem is.....is that the normal TYW/ECW infantry 6 pack doesn't have much of an answer. Except for any armor worn by the pikes, the close combat factors are the same.

jefritrout · Post by **jefritrout** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:32 pm

I brought the dreaded COLONIAL PORTUGUESE and I thought that I did reasonably well. The kicker was his two cavalry managed to run over a total of 3 warrior units and a poor support. But on impact I disrupted 4 of his units and fraggemented a fifth. It was looking like a good break through the middle of the Qing line. After the main units broke he had 2 light artillery units each backed by small units of crossbowmen. Should be easy pickings, but then my dice rolling worsened. Except against the fragmented unit - I didn't win a single combat for the next 4 turns.

To be fair, Matt is an extermely good player who uses angles excellently. He was getting 2 units to wrap around at the corners of the line. So he can get 14-18 dice of shooting. He did this to one and all. The advantage my warriors had against him was the 4" movement, so when he gets into range, the warriors can charge. They need to learn to fight however, or I need Scrumpy's orange dice.

marty · Post by **marty** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:21 am

The problem is.....is that the normal TYW/ECW infantry 6 pack doesn't have much of an answer

Very true. The bow player doesnt even need to gang up 2 units to 1 or have a regimental gun. The advantages of the 8el vs 6 el (only 4 shooter) units and the bows extra range are enough to mean the Pike/shot units are in for a thrashing in the shootout and have no reason to expect to win the fight if they close intact. The manchu's just make the issue even worse by having the Jingals, free LS and unlike many foot bow armies an effective mounted arm.

Of course there are probably armies out there that would crush the bow arnies but we arent seeing them much yet. I wouldn't mind a crack with an army of IF warriors or even better something with tons of armour (Japs would be perfect and a historical opponent). I also would have thought you would be in with a real shot with an army that had an abundance of good quality european cav (perhaps this could even mean we see some of the generally unimpressive gendarmes and the like).

Too early to freak out about bows just yet
Martin

ravenflight · Post by **ravenflight** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:17 am

marty wrote:Of course there are probably armies out there that would crush the bow arnies but we arent seeing them much yet.
Martin

Buccaneers.

No, I'm not swearing at you...

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:26 am

marty wrote:
The problem is.....is that the normal TYW/ECW infantry 6 pack doesn't have much of an answer
Very true. The bow player doesnt even need to gang up 2 units to 1 or have a regimental gun. The advantages of the 8el vs 6 el (only 4 shooter) units and the bows extra range are enough to mean the Pike/shot units are in for a thrashing in the shootout and have no reason to expect to win the fight if they close intact.

Sort of. But the idea that you get close to these guys and not have a wall of units is mistake. Frankly anyone letting people concentrate more fire is going to get drubbed. But it should be more like 3 BGs of Bow vs 4 BGs of TYW. That means you will be throwing 6 musket dice against two of his BGs.

Commanding out the units so you can send 8 shot into them and have a column of 4 pike that may get both armour and pike POA is also a benefit.

Then having the mounted tucked in close to the foot and ride hard in from 5 MU could help.

The true wrinkle for the TYW armies in shooting matches is the 6 bases vs 8 bases. The bow unit is less likely to have to take a CT and less likely to have it -1 CT.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:28 am

ravenflight wrote:
marty wrote:Of course there are probably armies out there that would crush the bow arnies but we arent seeing them much yet.
Martin
Buccaneers.

No, I'm not swearing at you...

Ethiopians.

ravenflight · Post by **ravenflight** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:32 am

hazelbark wrote:
ravenflight wrote:
marty wrote:Of course there are probably armies out there that would crush the bow arnies but we arent seeing them much yet.
Martin
Buccaneers.

No, I'm not swearing at you...
Ethiopians.

Ethiopian Buccaneers? I'm not sure there was such a thing.

Are you confusing this with Somali Pirates?

marty · Post by **marty** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:34 am

Commanding out the units so you can send 8 shot into them and have a column of 4 pike that may get both armour and pike POA is also a benefit.

Yeah I would have thought this was the way to go. After all you shouldnt need the pike mixed in as most of these pike/shot armies have cav good enough to keep the chinese mounted away.

Still going to be a very tough match up (with the archer only costing 5 points a base versus the 8 or so for the sperated musket bases) but it should work some of the time.

Taking a GC may also become more common.

Martin