Definition of Obstacles as FF

Simpleton · Post by **Simpleton** » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:19 pm

In one of our games, a player pointed out that the rules on page 170 states that "An obstacle is otherwise treated as if it was a Field Fortification." This is fine until you get to the section on pages 156-7 and you look at the first three dots:
The first dot has to do with the permissability of FF's in Army book lists or historical scenarios and is irrelevant.
The second dot is where trouble starts, "FF have a front and rear and these must be clearly identifiable."
The third dot states "A base counts as defending FF (abrv) if it is completely behind the fortifications with its edge touching the rear edge of the fortifications."
The last implies that a base facing the wrong way can be defending a fortification which in itself sound wrong to me.!

However, ditches, hedges, walls, etc clearly benefit the first group to reach it with their front edge. I would also question if Elephants or mounted troops should benefit from obstacles for shooting POA's I just can't see that a musketeer would have a tougher shot at an elephant behind a 4' farmers wall or hedge. Conversely I doubt a Hedge would trouble an Elephant charge either so losing the + POA if Elephants charge an obstacle.

It seems to me that we could treat Obstacles as FF in many but NOT ALL aspects.
1) They don't have a rear, just a front, and you decide that the moment someone's front or side edge contacts the obstacle base.
2) Elephants should ignore any rules regarding obstacles, they just trample right through them (possibly slowed down)
3) Elephants don't count obstacles as cover POA in shooting.
4) Re-evaluate if mounted troops can defend obstacles or true FFs.

Looking forward to some discussion. the Simpleton

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:32 am

I believe in the FAQ they clarify the obstacles are to whomever is there first.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:38 am

mounted never gain protection from obstacles nor can they man FF's. Only foot troops and Dragoons.

An obstacle provides protection from shooting and unprotected foot can claim protection VS mounted if they are caught in the open and are behind an obstacle. Artillery ignores the protection POA for shooting.

Simpleton · Post by **Simpleton** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:53 am

deadtorius wrote:mounted never gain protection from obstacles nor can they man FF's. Only foot troops and Dragoons.

An obstacle provides protection from shooting and unprotected foot can claim protection VS mounted if they are caught in the open and are behind an obstacle. Artillery ignores the protection POA for shooting.

Looking at p156-7 I don't see anything that says a mounted unit can't run up to an obstacle and defend it. They are given a (-) POA when shot at from everything but as you note by hvy/med arty. When an enemy formation comes towards them they have to stop 1 MU away, leaving the mounted unit able to charge or retire.

viperofmilan · Post by **viperofmilan** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:31 pm

Let common sense prevail. Surely an obstacle has no "clearly defined front" until such time that a BG moves in such a way as to be defending it. Should the original defender be driven off, an advancing enemy BG moving to defend the obstacle from the opposite side from the original defender now defines a new "front" for the obstacle.

Don't have my rules handy, but I believe it is correct that mounted cannot defend an obstacle or, by inference, a fortification.

I can see your point about being behind an obstacle providing cover to mounted, but it just isn't worth arguing about given the minimal impact this might have on a game. In our circle you almost never see obstacles selected in the first place, and almost never actually deployed in a place where they have any impact. And as for elephants . . .

Kevin

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:26 pm

We have never used any either, although I have a bunch of them for my 20mm plastic Dutch I used to use in the DBR days. They were out every game.

Part of the issue is that Blathergut has specified that if I take them he won't storm them but will sit back and make me come out to meet him

Was going to use them in our last game for the arty but then you really can't place it exactly where you want it as the FF's have to go down in their general area before the rest of the troops deploy.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:01 pm

I'll storm them if you only put pikes behind them

Simpleton · Post by **Simpleton** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:01 am

Simpleton wrote:
deadtorius wrote:mounted never gain protection from obstacles nor can they man FF's. Only foot troops and Dragoons.

An obstacle provides protection from shooting and unprotected foot can claim protection VS mounted if they are caught in the open and are behind an obstacle. Artillery ignores the protection POA for shooting.
Looking at p156-7 I don't see anything that says a mounted unit can't run up to an obstacle and defend it. They are given a (-) POA when shot at from everything but as you note by hvy/med arty. When an enemy formation comes towards them they have to stop 1 MU away, leaving the mounted unit able to charge or retire.

After further reading there is a single sentance in the book above each of the POA charts saying that Battle Wagons, Elephants and mounted cannot defend fortifications or obstacles. This should have been put in the Fortifications rules, would have been easier to find.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:59 am

It is in the errata section of the forums for FF's, only foot battle group bases gain protection from FF's or similar wording, basically if your not on foot the FF's won't do you any good.
I knew I had read that only foot and dragoons can defend FF's and obstacles some where.