Fog of War Frustration

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willgamer
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Fog of War Frustration

Post by willgamer »

Coming from a long time, but very average, player-

The devs have implemented FoW perfectly along classic wargame lines. This is mostly a frustration with that classic view. :P

The problem, as I perceive it, is that classic FoW, together with fixed starting positions, is taken advantage of by many, perhaps most, good players by looking at a revealed map before starting a scenario with FoW on. Evidence for this is easy to come by. Just look at the posts advising to new players who are having trouble with Sealion '40.

This makes perfect sense. Given that a good player will replay a scenario over and over until it is mastered, why waste time with the first 3 or 4 times it takes you to memorize enemy positions (pretty much whether you intend to or not!).

OTOH, since you can't toggle the FoW once the scenario is started, the polite fiction is maintained that you are playing against hidden positions. This can be especially deceiving to new players who have not caught on or been told what many of the experienced player are practicing.

If nothing else, the current system makes for extra drudge work, i.e. printing screenshots, having two PzCs running, or (really old school, gasp!) taking notes.

I say, let's just drag all this into the open and make it explicit, or possibly fix it. :shock:

Fix it- at least partially randomize Opfor starting postitions. This would definitely include all Opfor aircraft and ships. It also might include, for example, making the exact position of a AAA and arty that are adjacent to each other 50/50 to which postition each takes.

Expose it- make FoG able to be toggled in game. Better yet, have a scenario option, like today's FoW on/off, called "FoW with turn one intel" that would map the map visible on turn 1 only, then use today's FoW for the remaining turns.

Combo it- randomize starting postions and let players choose to pay with prestige points to receive a turn one revealed map, if desired.

FWIW... :roll:
Xerkis
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Post by Xerkis »

Random starting positions would make single play more difficult to play and would be “true” FoW. Good idea.

For multiplayer, simply allowing the players to place their units on turn one would accomplish this as well and be able to allow the players to use their own strategies from the beginning – and not that of those that created the maps. (No offence to the map makers.) As it is now, multiplayer strategies are forced upon the players by the predetermined starting positions of the units. And they are next to never how I would like to run my attacks / defenses. And here again would be "true" FoW.
El_Condoro
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Post by El_Condoro »

make FoG able to be toggled in game
It is - when a new game is started the option is given along with difficulty level. You can't do it once a game is started though.
Kerensky
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Post by Kerensky »

Xerkis wrote:Random starting positions would make single play more difficult to play and would be “true” FoW. Good idea.

For multiplayer, simply allowing the players to place their units on turn one would accomplish this as well and be able to allow the players to use their own strategies from the beginning – and not that of those that created the maps. (No offence to the map makers.) As it is now, multiplayer strategies are forced upon the players by the predetermined starting positions of the units. And they are next to never how I would like to run my attacks / defenses. And here again would be "true" FoW.
You obviously haven't played any of the multiplayer maps I designed. :)
Except Hunters in the Atlantic I guess. lol
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Post by Xerkis »

Kerensky wrote:
Xerkis wrote:Random starting positions would make single play more difficult to play and would be “true” FoW. Good idea.

For multiplayer, simply allowing the players to place their units on turn one would accomplish this as well and be able to allow the players to use their own strategies from the beginning – and not that of those that created the maps. (No offence to the map makers.) As it is now, multiplayer strategies are forced upon the players by the predetermined starting positions of the units. And they are next to never how I would like to run my attacks / defenses. And here again would be "true" FoW.
You obviously haven't played any of the multiplayer maps I designed. :)
Except Hunters in the Atlantic I guess. lol
Actually I have played multiplayer a bunch of times – but always the scenarios from the campaign… and those have the units in the same place; or at least I have seen no difference in any of them.
:)
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Post by Kerensky »

Xerkis wrote:Actually I have played multiplayer a bunch of times – but always the scenarios from the campaign… and those have the units in the same place; or at least I have seen no difference in any of them.
:)
Precisely. ;)

And that's why we have the alternate multiplayer maps.
Xerkis
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Post by Xerkis »

Kerensky wrote:
Xerkis wrote:Actually I have played multiplayer a bunch of times – but always the scenarios from the campaign… and those have the units in the same place; or at least I have seen no difference in any of them.
:)
Precisely. ;)

And that's why we have the alternate multiplayer maps.
Hold on there sir..... I haven't played PG in about 500 years or something like that. I'm still trying to get my General Hat back on. the uniform shrunk on me...... right now I need familiarity to get used to it all again.
:lol:

But then the point still remains – those scenarios don’t start with a true FoW - if you're playing them in multiplayer or in the campaign - they start off like an old pair of shoes; you know exactly how to get in them and how they feel.
:D
El_Condoro
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Post by El_Condoro »

I have played a lot of PBEM PG2 games and quite a few PzC MP games. Personally, I prefer set piece battles even if the type and location of starting positions is known. The 'freshness' comes from how the players use them (a bit like chess, I guess, but with FoW!) - where they attack/defend, with what and the sneaky moves they make. In games where the prestige is given to allow the players choice in what they buy it becomes a bit of min/max with statistics in my experience. These are just my personal opinions but if an MP game was given random location of units the game could boil down to that initial random placement and largely remove the player's ability from the equation. A mirrored game would not be equal due to this factor.
TheGrayMouser
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Post by TheGrayMouser »

I like the idea that as an option that you could chose when issuing a MP challenge either "historical deployment" ie what the scenario designer set, or "free" deployment.
Xerkis
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Post by Xerkis »

TheGrayMouser wrote:I like the idea that as an option that you could chose when issuing a MP challenge either "historical deployment" ie what the scenario designer set, or "free" deployment.
Very nice idea. Like that a lot.
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Post by Razz1 »

Need to play Bocage Hell or Operation Zitadell in the design center.

Campaign maps are not balanced for MP you are wasting your time.
starbird
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Post by starbird »

I share your frustration, but not sure randomizing starting postions is the way to go.
It might disturb the intended challenging level of certain campaigns, leading DV impossible in some case while far too easy in others.
When some opportunists keep loading for a favorite start and get an easy score, it'll ruin the game for all of us.

Maybe another approach. :wink:
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Post by soldier »

I think over time, most people will develop an attack that will bring maximum advantage in the first turn of some scenarios so you should probably expect to get hit hard at the start. Over the years i memorized certain attacks for scenarios in the old PG pretty well, but i usually played hotseat and could expect the same when i played the reverse. Its what happens after that that counts and if the scenario is reasonably well balanced you can still get a good fight.
As another previous poster mentioned, If an expert can belt you today with a good starting turn imagine what he might achieve by being able to deploy his forces, either in a defensive line or as a striking force. It could be all over after the first turn. I doubt this feature is going to lead to more even or fair games if that's what your after. Similar trouble may arise if players can purchase their own forces. You might see an even greater number of King Tigers than we do now or some punk might be buy an entire army of paratroopers :roll: . A perfectly legal tactic but not one i'd like to play against.
I do like the set piece historical scenarios, but having said that i think the ability to deploy your forces in a new bunch of scenarios would be an excellent addition in the future and i'd look forward to taking the good games with the bad.
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Post by Xerkis »

Razz1 wrote:Campaign maps are not balanced for MP you are wasting your time.
So you’re saying that there are parts of Panzer Corps that are a waste of time.
Now that’s an interesting thing for one of their mods to be saying. That certainly should help the undecided customers want to buy the game now.
:roll:
VPaulus
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Post by VPaulus »

I think what Razz means, is that for multiplayer you've better maps than the campaign maps.
Being a mod, is like any other user, in the sense that he has is own opinions. Just because he's a mod is not the utlimate source of truth. Some will agree while others disagree.
I doubt that any indecisive costumer will regard this as a factor of decision.
Xerkis
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Post by Xerkis »

VPaulus wrote:I think what Razz means, is that for multiplayer you've better maps than the campaign maps.
Being a mod, is like any other user, in the sense that he has is own opinions. Just because he's a mod is not the utlimate source of truth. Some will agree while others disagree.
I doubt that any indecisive costumer will regard this as a factor of decision.
No big thing - just razzing Razz a bit.
:lol:
What he wrote just struck me funny that's all

I reread it and figure out what he meant. But like I said before (someplace) it's been so long since I played this type of game, I am just trying to get back in to the swing of things for now. Relearning - as it were. And as of now the scenarios in multiplayer is allowing me to try some things under a more "controlled" environment. So it is far from a waste of time (for me)...... but isn't ALL games a waste of time anyhow - it's the point of games. :D
VPaulus
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Post by VPaulus »

Xerkis wrote: I reread it and figure out what he meant. But like I said before (someplace) it's been so long since I played this type of game, I am just trying to get back in to the swing of things for now. Relearning - as it were. And as of now the scenarios in multiplayer is allowing me to try some things under a more "controlled" environment. So it is far from a waste of time (for me)...... but isn't ALL games a waste of time anyhow - it's the point of games. :D
Well, there are worst things to waste your time.
Besides most of us are males. We need this kind of things to balance ourselves. Women don't usually understand some of these male characteristics. :wink:
Xerkis
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Post by Xerkis »

VPaulus wrote:
Xerkis wrote: I reread it and figure out what he meant. But like I said before (someplace) it's been so long since I played this type of game, I am just trying to get back in to the swing of things for now. Relearning - as it were. And as of now the scenarios in multiplayer is allowing me to try some things under a more "controlled" environment. So it is far from a waste of time (for me)...... but isn't ALL games a waste of time anyhow - it's the point of games. :D
Well, there are worst things to waste your time.
Besides most of us are males. We need this kind of things to balance ourselves. Women don't usually understand some of these male characteristics. :wink:
Oh, there is sooooooo much truth in all of that.
:)

............. But anyhow - what was this thread about again? :?
TheGrayMouser
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Post by TheGrayMouser »

Recent unclassified documents suggest that wargames were invented and introduced by the feminist/suffragette movement in the 1920's as a way to channel mens evil ways to something benign like gaming. If not for wargames, says the data , 99% of men right now would be unemployed, sitting on a couch with wife beater t-shirt( marlboro pack rolled up in sleeve), beer in one hand, shaking a fist at their wife with the other , demanding their Turkey pot pie be heated up right now , or else!
VPaulus
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Post by VPaulus »

ROFL
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