What's the Secret to the France 44 Battle?

[MarsRobert]

Coming off a decisive win in Italy, I was very surprised to find myself getting totally trashed in France. As near as I can figure I was doing a good job decimating the Normandy force (though taking heavy losses myself), but then a force of allied heavy tanks (from Operation Anvil?) showed up in my rear and that was all she wrote. I had one unit left standing at the end. Also, of course the allied air 'armada' was a horrorshow (as it was for the Germans historically), and it seems to me that you need at least four and preferably five reasonably buffed fighters to counter it. Anyway, anyone have any thoughts on this battle?

BTW, it seemed to me that the payoff for my big win in Italy was rather light. No extra units, and if I got a lot of extra prestige points I didn't notice it. One thing I've been learning in this game with the prestige points is it's a classic case of unlimited wants and limited means. Sure, it would be great to have that cool new Komet jet fighter, but obviously you can't do that when you still have infantry that have not been upgraded to '43.

[Locarnus]

ahem, at this point I have at least 5 veteran fighters + 1 or 2 additional surge fighters and at least 1 fighter bomber
you have lots of core slots by then, I wonder what your force composition is at this point? that would give a starting point for providing help (and dont forget the difficulty as in any help request).

also i dont like the komet for the same reason i dont like the tiger, the fuel is just crippling

[MarsRobert]

Thanks for the reply Locarnus. You've confirmed what I suspected; that is, I need more fighters. By the France 44 battle I had three fighters, a fighter bomber, and a heavy bomber. What is a 'surge' fighter? So you had a nine unit air force? Wow! On a related note, I guess after my Luftwaffe cleared the skies over Italy I sort of figured that what I had would be enough for France 44.....wrong!

BTW, I did notice the fuel problem maybe a little with my lone Tiger, but still, those babies trash anything in their path.

Also, I finished out my first campaign going down in flames in the defense of Berlin, and it will be interesting to see how I do on my second campaign. I think one thing is that I only had three decisive wins (Poland, Kiev, and Italy), and I definitely need to try to up that number the next time around. I'm assuming that decisive wins give you more prestige points, and sometimes give you free units and unlock other missions.

[Locarnus]

I m still at Kursk, doing my alternate campaign path (from my signature).
But I already did sealion42.
The need for fighter units is very different from scenario to scenario, so I try to reflect this.
Up to sealion42 I had 5 fighter units. Since sealion is a western battle and invasion map i figured that I need additional airpower, but wont need that additional airpower in russia
so I bought 1 additional fighter, which I only wanted to use when heavy air fighting is expected (invasions, western battles)

Now I use only 3 or 4 fighters in russia and field more at and tanks instead
When fighting in the west again, I will probably use my 5 fighters and for invasion maps (eg overlord, east coast) I will add surge (non veteran, additional) fighters
(my 1 from sealion and 1 more for at total figher force of 7 or even more)

My core airforce at the moment (Kursk) consists of 5 veteran fighters + 1 surge fighter (low experience), 2 stukas, 1 fighterbomber, 3 strat bombers
for a total of 12 air units (I dont count my para), though I will only deploy 3 or so fighters in Kursk

What other units do you have then, if you have so few air units?
and what was your path up till now? did you have the opportunity to gain experience for your units?

[MarsRobert]

Again Locarnus, you've confirmed what I suspected about needing a larger air force in the later missions to counter the large allied air forces. Still though, from your last reply it sounds to me like you can sell off units to free up slots. I was under the impression that once you buy something you're stuck with it until it gets destroyed.

Anyway, definitely one thing I've been learning is that the proper force composition and prestige management is every bit as important as good battlefield tactics. I think at times I was maybe a bit too free in my use of elite reinforcements to replenish my units.

[AgentX]

Again Locarnus, you've confirmed what I suspected about needing a larger air force in the later missions to counter the large allied air forces. Still though, from your last reply it sounds to me like you can sell off units to free up slots. I was under the impression that once you buy something you're stuck with it until it gets destroyed.

MarsRobert, you don't need to sell units to free up slots; you can just keep them in Reserve and not deploy them (if you disband them, you lose the experience). You are allowed to carry a bigger Core army than slots are available. This way you can change your Core composition to match the scenario. Just don't get too carried away and waste Prestige on having too many Reserve units.

[Locarnus]

I dont sell units (although that is maybe possible), I just do not deploy them and leave them as reserves.
edit: emued

Also I try to replace losses only in the deployment phase, rarely during the scenario (that just costs a lot).
And I have few units overstrength except for strat bombers and artillery.

[Kerensky]

Though my tag says 'Scenario Designer' these are several scenarios I didn't make. All I can tell you is you're supposed to lose, because that's what happened historically. At least that's the impression I get from them.

Even if they are beatable in a single play scenario (I win because I have two units left and they have one unit left), the affect these scenarios have on your core is pretty much campaign ending, especially on the higher difficulties.

[Locarnus]

@Kerensky:
Which difficulty did you try this?

I tried sealion42 as a scenario, which was pretty hard.
When I later tried it in the campaign, it was much easier, due to my experienced units, leaders and especially my upgrades. 3 veteran units of 13-14 str strat bombers, escorted by modern fighters, made mincemeat of the british navy.

I prob will try out overlord as scenario, to see if the same happens here (as in my campaign path, I have to win overlord decisively to get to us east coast...)

edit: I dont want to be a puny pak

[SardaukarCRO]

first, how many units did u lose throughout your campaign?

there's no need to have more units than you can deploy, rather spend prestige on elite reinforcements or upgrading units. in some scenarios (like Kiev) u can deploy less units, but don't buy units just to have units. 2-3 veteran upgraded fighters are better than 5-6 rookie old fighters, especially in sea lion and USA scenarios (even France has good fighters). my general strategy is to have 5 fighters, 2 stuka bombers and one strategic bomber already in France. as i wrote in other posts, look at campaign tree in library section and see in which scenarios u must have decisive victories, and where u can achieve marginal victories. in Norway, for example, marginal victory gives you +500 prestige in low countries. also, u can hammer enemy's troops to gain experience, capture other enemy's cities to have more prestige if u can spare a few turns (for example, in Kiev I thrashed Russians, could achieve decisive victory 2 turns before the deadline, but i left it open and went chasing their units and capturing their cities - managed to destroy&capture everything in turn 18/22). also, have at least 4 artillery pieces in france (2 in trucks, 2 that can move and shoot - i don't know their names). at least 5 tanks (one of them SE tank) and 6 infantry units are needed in low countries.

and most important - don't lose core units

[MarsRobert]

Agent X - I didn't know that you can field more units than you have slots for. Thanks.

Locarnus - Wow! You go through entire battles without ever replacing any losses? Gosh, you must be a lot better player than I am. Still in all, I do agree that I sometimes am a bit to quick to do battlefield replacements. Not only is this expensive, but it takes time, and time is one thing you don't have when trying to achieve a decisive victory. Still it's better than risking losing a unit though.

Kerensky - So France 44 is the proverbial Kobayashi Maru scenario???? I do agree though that that large air force making my life miserable in France is indeed what happened historically. Speaking of which, on a broader note I am amazed how historically accurate most of the battles are in the game; abstractions notwithstanding. In fact I would go so far as to say that I've never played more enjoyable renditions of Fall Gelb, Fall Blau, the Smolensk/Yelnya battles, Operation Typhoon, and Kursk. The player is confronted with many of the same problems the German commanders faced historically.

[texican]

I have my 4 or 5 fighters, plus I take my 3 Stukas and upgrade them to FW190 fighter bombers, which are somewhat fighter-like. I have one overstrength 5 star He 177 that will decimate all of the allied ships (one-shotting them, essentially) once my fighters win the air war. Then ground just cleans up.

Decisive on General. Will have to try Field Marshal next.

[Locarnus]

Locarnus - Wow! You go through entire battles without ever replacing any losses? Gosh, you must be a lot better player than I am. Still in all, I do agree that I sometimes am a bit to quick to do battlefield replacements. Not only is this expensive, but it takes time and makes a decisive victory less likely. Still it's better than risking losing a unit though.

Not without replacing, but I try to minimize this. Also I m playing on General, not FieldMarshal. And third I have more battles in my campaign, which means more prestige and more experience.
So the further down the campaign, the easier it gets for me compared to the normal campaign (until I have balanced my campaign ito prestige).

I use battered units to take over villages and victory hexes, so that my healthier units dont have to waste a turn for that. Or to clean up enemy 1-2 str units...

edit: just loaded up the overlord scenario...

that looks like a nightmare
I do not mean the allied forces, I mean the german forces in comparison to them...
2 fighters? really? and not even positioned together?
about the positioning, the german forces are really badly positioned.
you lose forces without being able to do something, and I do not mean the forces in the cities at the coast.
some units you can not rescue, because they have no transport and are in the middle of nowhere, having eg movement of 1...
and with that amount of prestige, you cant even compensate...

Id really like to see some video aar for that scenario (not the campaign, where you have your chosen veterans, positioned as you like it, I m confident I can handle them there as well).

[MarsRobert]

Locarnus - I hear you man about the Overload Scenario. Again, a real horrorshow. In all fairness though, I was starting to gain some ground by mid-game despite some losses. My Tiger and Panther were decimating the enemy Shermans, and my three fighters (two after losing one) were starting to make a dent in the Allied air power. Alas, I lost two much beating back the Normandy invasion, and then when the 'Anvil' forces arrived in my rear with the buffed up Shermans that was all she wrote.

Sardaukar - Yes, you make a good point about veteran over rookie units, though I think early on you need to eschew using elite replacements so you can build up an army quickly. Thanks for reminding me about the odd opportunities for gaining additional prestige and experience. I think subconsciously I knew this but you mentioning it makes it more cognizant in my mind. As with others here, you reinforce the fact that I should have gone in to Overlord with more fighters. Also, I think the most I ever had was 28 units. BTW, I am a serious Dune fan!

Texican - I dunno, I think honor is satisfied by being able to survive at the normal difficulty level.

Anyway, I love this game. Not since Sid Meier's Civilization series have I played a game so compelling and addicting. In fact I'm about to try the main campaign again rather than go out tonight.

[Locarnus]

I just tried it.
Bought a bunch of 88flak and upgraded some of the units from the scenario.

I lost some inf in the north, but overall it went well.
When most of the allied forces were defeated, I closed in on them.

Then 10 or more allied tanks appeared out of nowhere, most likely the ai used prestige, because they appeared around ai cities.
That would have been a tough fight, vs my 88s.
But unfortunately the allied battleships could fire 5 hexes inland.

So the ai had a powerful tank force, combined with massive fire support.
I stopped there. Just wasnt fun anymore with the battleships firing 5 hexes inland and nothing you can do about it.
Just didnt feel right...

[MarsRobert]

I just tried it.
Bought a bunch of 88flak and upgraded some of the units from the scenario.

I lost some inf in the north, but overall it went well.
When most of the allied forces were defeated, I closed in on them.

Then 10 or more allied tanks appeared out of nowhere, most likely the ai used prestige, because they appeared around ai cities.
That would have been a tough fight, vs my 88s.
But unfortunately the allied battleships could fire 5 hexes inland.

So the ai had a powerful tank force, combined with massive fire support.
I stopped there. Just wasnt fun anymore with the battleships firing 5 hexes inland and nothing you can do about it.
Just didnt feel right...

Sounds to me like what Kerensky said was true then. That is, the player is not meant to win a decisive victory in this one, or at least to do so would be very difficult. I've not looked at the campaign tree as I don't want any spoilers, but it looks to me like if you don't do Sealion and win it, then whatever else happens you will be forced to fight it out to the bitter end in that nightmare invasion of Germany finale battle. Sighs.

On a plus note, I've restarted the campaign and am keeping in mind everyone's suggestions. I think the main thing is I'm really watching very closely my prestige usage. I got through Poland without doing a single battlefield replacement, and looked for opportunities to gather more prestige. Also, I've already purchased an additional Me109 squadron and will be grooming my fighters and expanding them steadily as I go. Also, I've renamed two units: the 7th Panzer and the Von Richthofen Squadron.

[SardaukarCRO]

good luck, dune fan

buy 1 fighter, 1 stuka bomber, 2 self - propelled artillery pieces and you're good to demolish Poland.
don't lose core units (again!!!)

you can still use elite replacements during scenarios and still have plenty of it for upgrading - just use elite replacements on units that are needed - no reason to use 150+ prestige on weak fighters if there's no enemy's air power or infantry that are well behind your front lines. use your fighters on ground targets too - 1 point of exp is better than none

[Fritz]

I have done Overlord in 19 rounds. (Level 3 - Colonel)

I started with the third campain (Italy, Gustav Linie, Overlord).

I used
2 Wehrmacht 43
4 Grenadier 43
1 Gebirgsjäger 43
1 Panzer IIIN
5 Panzer IVJ
3 Panther G
3 Tiger I
1 SdKfz 234/2
1 Marder IIIM
1 21cm Mrs18
2 Wurfrahmen 40
2 siG 38t
4 Flak 36 (good to counter light tanks)
1 Bf109K
3 Fw190-D9

One most common mistake is to think that you have to counter all enemy fighters at once. Its better to wait for 1 seperated enemy fighter and then attack with all own fighters. Its not recommended to split your own fighters. Also repair them before they are too weak.

With only 4 Flaks you can quickly weaken the enemy fighters. They then can be finished easily by the Luftwaffe. Also Flak 36 maye be weaker but you can switch it to finish of weak units.

http://www.bilder-space.de/show_img.php ... e=original
http://www.bilder-space.de/show_img.php ... e=original
http://www.bilder-space.de/show_img.php ... e=original

[aleader]

Sounds to me like what Kerensky said was true then. That is, the player is not meant to win a decisive victory in this one, or at least to do so would be very difficult. I've not looked at the campaign tree as I don't want any spoilers, but it looks to me like if you don't do Sealion and win it, then whatever else happens you will be forced to fight it out to the bitter end in that nightmare invasion of Germany finale battle. Sighs.

I just completed the campaign (on the default difficulty) and was able to earn a decisive in Normandy, but ended up getting hammered in Berlin (even the Tiger II's and Jadgtigers seem like Shermans in that one). I had built up a core group of 5 fighters (most FW 190's, 13+ strength) , 2 Stukas and a strat bomber, which was very effective at taking out landing craft. I basically rushed the beach, hitting the landing craft and picking off their fighters when I had no LC targets. Eventually wiped out their air force and landing force at the beach, and then worked backwards to Paris to take out the force that was back there.

Worked, but it was costly to some of my core units which I badly needed in the following battles. Air power is virtually useless against late-war Russian armour. You need LOTS of very experienced tanks to beat them, and like it was said, some of those later scenarios are unbeatable. Interestingly, my most effective unit as I was getting pasted in Berlin (and that previous battle by the lake) was a 14 strength Panther G. Ended up holding off the onslaught for 9 turns before it ran out of ammo.

[Fritz]

The West Germany scenario is rather easy. I made decsisive in 7 rounds.

The Germany scenario is IMHO impossible to win.

The East Germany scenario is maybe possible if you focus on a defense ring around berlin. I must figure out a good tactic some time.