Suggestion: Storch recce planes

Ryben · Post by **Ryben** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:07 pm

It´s hard to plan your movements in advance without proper recon.

Recce vehicles are vital but, even with their increased range you can´t really know what lies behind the front lines unless you perform a deep-recon patrol with the most common result of your armoured casr being destroyed.

I think it will be very interesting if we could have a Storch plane unit that could not attack but have increased spotting range, allowing that much needed deep reconnaissance into enemy terrotiry (quite risky but worthy)

tschli · Post by **tschli** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:23 pm

I agree - a Storch unit would be awesome!

Kissaki · Post by **Kissaki** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:29 pm

Oh yes, excellent suggestion! But then it should be given the same thing as recon units, that you can spend your movement points piece-meal, because having just the area around the final destination of the aircraft revealed is pretty sloppy reconaissance work.

El_Condoro · Post by **El_Condoro** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:36 pm

It would need to have a short MV if it gets recon move and a wide spotting range otherwise it will become a fun killer - no more surprises. Especially in MP this would be an extremely useful unit, so we might need to pay more for a cheap plane, if you know what I mean. Alternatively, spotting could be handled differently when done from the air - like in PeG perhaps you can see a unit but not its strength, for example, if in forest, or city hex? Nothing in snow or rain?

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:46 pm

El_Condoro wrote:It would need to have a short MV if it gets recon move and a wide spotting range otherwise it will become a fun killer - no more surprises. Especially in MP this would be an extremely useful unit, so we might need to pay more for a cheap plane, if you know what I mean. Alternatively, spotting could be handled differently when done from the air - like in PeG perhaps you can see a unit but not its strength, for example, if in forest, or city hex? Nothing in snow or rain?

In rain or snow all air units have a spotting penalty, so this unit would have it too. As for PeG approach, I think that it only looks more advanced, but in reality you can guess enemy strength in 90% of cases (new unit I haven't seen before? - strength is 10).

In what unit class would you place this recon plane? Probably making a new class for it would be too much.

El_Condoro · Post by **El_Condoro** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:56 pm

In PG2 we just made recon planes a tac bomber (without the bombing ability)

[Edit] ...but can you assign recon move to a TB in PzC? Or to any class, for that matter? And if so, how?

Kissaki · Post by **Kissaki** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:56 pm

Rudankort wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:It would need to have a short MV if it gets recon move and a wide spotting range otherwise it will become a fun killer - no more surprises. Especially in MP this would be an extremely useful unit, so we might need to pay more for a cheap plane, if you know what I mean. Alternatively, spotting could be handled differently when done from the air - like in PeG perhaps you can see a unit but not its strength, for example, if in forest, or city hex? Nothing in snow or rain?
In rain or snow all air units have a spotting penalty, so this unit would have it too. As for PeG approach, I think that it only looks more advanced, but in reality you can guess enemy strength in 90% of cases (new unit I haven't seen before? - strength is 10).

In what unit class would you place this recon plane? Probably making a new class for it would be too much.

Recon class, perhaps? That's the only class it could possibly fit in, I think. It would have no offensive capabilities, no defence either, the best it could hope for would be to evade. But any aerial encounter (except with enemy recon) would be very deadly. Making it extremely vulnerable to enemy aircraft would go a long way to off-set the advantage of revealing large chunks of the map quickly. Giving it a lower base strength (say, 5) would accentuate this, perhaps.

Ryben · Post by **Ryben** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:10 pm

Maybe a spotting range of "2" will be enough, plus the recce movement. It would be a very fragile unit so deep recon patrols into enemy cities could reveal hidden air defence units that would put the Storch in great risk.

I also agree that it should be expensive.

PinkPanzer · Post by **PinkPanzer** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:39 pm

Rudankort wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:It would need to have a short MV if it gets recon move and a wide spotting range otherwise it will become a fun killer - no more surprises. Especially in MP this would be an extremely useful unit, so we might need to pay more for a cheap plane, if you know what I mean. Alternatively, spotting could be handled differently when done from the air - like in PeG perhaps you can see a unit but not its strength, for example, if in forest, or city hex? Nothing in snow or rain?
In rain or snow all air units have a spotting penalty, so this unit would have it too. As for PeG approach, I think that it only looks more advanced, but in reality you can guess enemy strength in 90% of cases (new unit I haven't seen before? - strength is 10).

In what unit class would you place this recon plane? Probably making a new class for it would be too much.

A new unit class would be too much for a recon plane.
Compared to PG the spotting ranges of units have been reduced. I assume it's intentional, so if your too aggressive moving units you'll be surprised.

There's a saying in maneuver warfare theory: He who wins the recon battle wins the war.
In PG SE and PeG recons were so good, they were a key unit in any task force.
In PK recons have the best spotting range of 3 of any unit(tied with cav) and recon movement, but I'd guess most players don't include them in their core units.
Which implies that the spotting range of recons needs to be increased to 4 hexes to make them more worth buying as a core unit.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:05 pm

This was discussed in beta but is affects game balance too much and not enough time to see if it would be applicable.

I don't think we need it.

I would suggest using the Sdkfz 222 at spotting range 4, which is more than the current 3

Why? because a player can think about buying one.

Moves less than other reconnoiter units, has wheels so can not travel into forest hills as well as other recon units.

So the unit is a trade off.

Make the player have a more diversified unit mix.

We had an Italian unit that spotted 4 hexes and we played with that, but....

I felt it spoiled the game as it was too easy to spot rear artillery. Then all you had to do was use your longer range Art and Air force.

Another problem with range 4 is finding the appropriate Allied units to give the same spotting range.

So... even with a spotting range of 4 it may affect the game balance too much.

For single player scenario and campaign, do we really need to see 4 hexes? NO, you can win without it. You don't want the game to be easier do you?

Just some thoughts above need to be considered.