Using early tanks effectively

oppi · Post by **oppi** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:51 pm

Hello Guys !

I just lost the 1939 Campaign on Lieutenant during the Lowlands Scenario. My analysis came to the conclusion that my tank forces (5-6 units panzer2-4) where pretty much useless.
The only time i could od some damage was when i could sneak around enemy lines and attack artillery/anti air units. But other than that i never found a good use (maybe recon too).

So my question is: Is there a more effective purpose of tanks or should i rely more on pioneers/stukas ?

Thanks

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:00 pm

Short Answer: Combined Arms

Slightly longer: sofeten up enemy infantry with artillery or air assaults, even fighters strafing will lower enemy entrenchment levels... Try to remain in open terrian/attack enemy in open terrain with your tanks.

remeber Blitzkrieg wasnt about slamming mass into mass, but penetrating weak spots and racing to the soft rear echelon units to slaughter them

(or in game terms artillery AA and objective hexes)

Good hunting!

Obsolete · Post by **Obsolete** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:05 pm

Hmm, well if you feel tanks are useless, you are free to avoid purchasing or replacing them

MikeAP · Post by **MikeAP** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:08 pm

I've found that hitting a unit with artillery to surpress, then using tanks to engage is very effective.

But yes, combined arms is the way to go. I always prefer to have 2 friendly INF with a TANK and rear-hex Arty against an enemy unit. Overkill? Maybe, but effective.

oppi · Post by **oppi** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:21 pm

thanks for your input

im gonna restart the campaign and try it this way now

btw i didnt mean that tanks are ineffetive, but i dont use them effectively

MikeAP · Post by **MikeAP** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:25 pm

Just MG's and low caliber cannons. Fortunately, your tanks are much better than the enemies

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:00 pm

Early War tanks have limited direct combat use (mostly they are best at hunting down artillery), but they do have other uses...
Blitzkrieg of the Low Countries in history wasn't a success because the German tanks slaughtered everything in their path.

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:51 pm

Kerensky wrote:Early War tanks have limited direct combat use (mostly they are best at hunting down artillery), but they do have other uses...
Blitzkrieg of the Low Countries in history wasn't a success because the German tanks slaughtered everything in their path.

This is a fact. In the real battle for the lowlands, German panzers, especially the I's and II's took alot of losses. Their tanks get better as the game goes on, just like in the war.

WabeWalker · Post by **WabeWalker** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:19 am

As others have said, roll your tanks through. They need to take out artillery units in the backfield BEFORE your infantry arrives. Tanks can then return to the front and mop up weakened infantry units that are low on health and are no longer entrenched. Always watch out for easy targets - a recon vehicle or an infantry unit out in the open or a soft target vehicle advancing, are sitting ducks against tanks. And one last thing: always upgrade your tanks. I'd prefer to have fewer state of the art tanks than a whole bunch that are dated. WT h your money carefully.

Tarrak · Post by **Tarrak** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:57 am

Early tanks are not really worth the name imho. All the Panzer's I and II are only useful to attack artillery and to some extent AA guns (some nasty losses possible here tho if you unlucky) and infantry only in open fields. Even at that they aren't really effective due to their very low attack values but at least they don't suffer to many casualties. Their main strength is their mobility: Move them around and past choke points and attack from behind their soft targets. After you eliminated or at least significantly weakened their AA and artillery use your own artillery and tac bombers to soften the leftovers and let infantry clean the entrenchments. Combined arm forces are they key.

Early my core units are composed of mostly infantry with a few tanks as support with a ratio about 2:1. As the war goes on and stronger tanks arrive they ratio shifts more and more towards the tanks and tend to be 1:2 against the end of the war. Well at least that was the case in PG. I am not that far in PanzerCorps yet but i guess it won't change much here.

In regards to WabeWalker's post: I personally would be careful to call recon vehicles "easy targets" for the Pz I and IIs. They can be surprisingly tough and annoying. I remember a certain Dingo that gave even my Pz III the creeps.

WabeWalker · Post by **WabeWalker** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:11 am

A recon vehicle taking out a tank? Isn't that just bad luck? Does the difficulty setting effect this? I'm playing on the notch below the toughest. I was wondering if I should have bumped it up to the toughest?

Also, I had a good laugh on my first turn because I made the exact same mistake I made nearly twenty years ago when I originally played PG: I purchased an artillery unit, and didn't realize that I had to buy a transport as well. LOL! It was only afterwards that I remembered I had made that mistake decades earlier. Just too funny.

I'm only on Norway, by the way, so take my comments with a grain of salt. The Norway map, by the way, is beautiful. When I arrived here in PG this map gave me fits. It seemed so huge at the time. I remember how tough it was moving units up the so-called Trondheim corridor. I should be an expert at this by now. This was the map where I had to divide my army for the first time. One group went up the corridor, and the other went up the coast.

Yikes! This game is a bit dangerous. I have a life to live, you know. Man, I've got chicks crawling all over me. You think I have time for this?

PinkPanzer · Post by **PinkPanzer** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:36 am

The 39 panzer division doesn't work well in the game:2 tank plus 1 panzergrenedier plus 1 arty regiment. 80% of maps are bad tank terrain, which tanks shouldn't attack into or move through because enemy infantry will shoot at the tanks close defense value instead of the normal defensive value.

Better to go with the 43 panzer division of: 2 panzergrenedier plus 1 tank plus 1 arty regiments.

I think stukas just kill, but arty and stat bombers suppress?

Tarrak · Post by **Tarrak** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am

WabeWalker wrote:A recon vehicle taking out a tank? Isn't that just bad luck? Does the difficulty setting effect this? I'm playing on the notch below the toughest. I was wondering if I should have bumped it up to the toughest?

I play only on colonel difficulty but the recons can be a pain in the ass. In lower countries i was happily rushing forward with my Panzer IIIE, enjoying the countryside and having a blast while a little Dingo recon come into my flied of view. "Easy target" i thought and engaged ... a 8 strength PzIIIE vs a 10 strength Dingo should be no problem i thought ... after a brief fire fight i lost 5 units while the bloody Dingo only lost 4. It was possibly just bad luck but after that i went for the "safety first" option and called a Stuka.

So if the Dingo could seriously hurt my PzIII i imagine it would pretty much annihilate PzI or II.

Also, I had a good laugh on my first turn because I made the exact same mistake I made nearly twenty years ago when I originally played PG: I purchased an artillery unit, and didn't realize that I had to buy a transport as well. LOL! It was only afterwards that I remembered I had made that mistake decades earlier. Just too funny.

This happened to me too in the original PG. I kept wondering how the hell is the artillery supposed to keep up with my troops while it only can move one field ... after that i forced myself to learn English and read the manual.

PinkPanzer wrote:I think stukas just kill, but arty and stat bombers suppress?

Yes tactical bombers (Stuka, BF110) do not suppress but they have a high chance to kill units. Artillery creates suppression but got as well a good chance to score a few kills, especially vs soft targets. Strategic bombers mostly suppress. They got a chance to kill but it is very low and rarely, if at all, it's more then one unit.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:59 am

PinkPanzer wrote:
I think stukas just kill, but arty and stat bombers suppress?

No... Art and strategy bombers can kill strength

PinkPanzer · Post by **PinkPanzer** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:32 am

Razz1 wrote:
PinkPanzer wrote:
I think stukas just kill, but arty and stat bombers suppress?
No... Art and strategy bombers can kill strength

I think i should have said skukas just kill, but art and strat bombers kill and suppress.

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:50 am

PinkPanzer wrote:I think i should have said skukas just kill, but art and strat bombers kill and suppress.

When they score a hit, Stukas have 80% kill/20% suppress, just like most other units. Arty and strategic bombers are 20% kill/80% suppress.

Iscaran · Post by **Iscaran** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:23 pm

Though a little offtopic question:
@Rudankort
Are those kill/suppression values moddable via pzequip ?

If so what is the respective column label ?

vonGekko · Post by **vonGekko** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:00 pm

One thing that hasn't been mentioned about tanks (and recon) is their extra mobility allows them to move into flanking positions on entrenched enemy infantry (e.g. city garrisons). This reduces the initiative of the defender and, in concert with artillery preparation, significantly reduces the risk of your first ground attack.

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:04 pm

Iscaran wrote:Though a little offtopic question:
@Rudankort
Are those kill/suppression values moddable via pzequip ?

If so what is the respective column label ?

Not yet, this is a class-wide setting, and class settings are still hard-coded for the most part. I'll see what I can do about it.

texican · Post by **texican** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:14 pm

Early in the game, no more than 3 or 4 tanks, and I try to keep it to 3. Later, maybe a 5th one, but maybe.

Here is a good combined arms list:

6+ Infantry
2 to 3 Artillery
4 Tanks
1 to 2 Recon
4+ Fighter planes (5 or 6 later in the game)
2+ Stukas
2 or 3 Level Bombers

And as the force pool enlarges, get more Fighter planes.

What is not needed so much:

Anti-tank units (except mid-game there are some better selections)
Anti-air units (fill this slot with a Fighter plane instead)

The historical blitzkrieg successes had more to do with air than anything else. Strong air + weak tanks = early war blitzkrieg victories. Weak air + great tanks = Late war defeats.