Late Seleucid 650pt -> 800pt

Gollum9 · Post by **Gollum9** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:17 pm

I have a Seleucid army that I have started painting but before I do any more, I want to get a list sorted firstly for 650pts, and then another 150pts to make it up to 800pts. I would rather not paint a number of models only to find I will have a poor mix or should have different sized BG's.

If you could have a ready through and give any advice, it would be much appreciated!

650

3 x TC
6 x Agema
4 x Companions
24 x Pikes (not sure whether 2 or 3 BG's at this stage)
6 x Thureophoroi
6 x LW with bow (poor)
4 x Skythian LH
2 x Elephants
6 x Thracians

800

Add 2 bases to each of the Thracians and Thureophoroi
1 x TC
6 LF with bow
2 x Agema (to make 2 BG's of 4)
either 6 LF with Javelins (ave) or 4 x Tarantine Cavalry

See what you think and feel free to tell me if I am way off!!

Thanks

elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n · Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:13 pm

Obviously these are just my opinions

6 x Agema (you want them in BGs of 4 so probably only want 4)
24 x Pikes (arguments either way personally I would go for 3 BG's)
6 x Thureophoroi (prefer thorakitai)
6 x LW with bow (poor) (I would take 8 poor sling (16pts) over 6 poor bow (18pts))

800

Add 2 bases to each of the Thracians and Thureophoroi (you can't 6 is the max of both)

The perceived wisdom is that you dont an IC with seleucid. At 800pts I prefer an IC and 2 TCs to 4TCs (it is 10pts dearer). Your pike are average and protected and the IC really helps vs shooting)

Hope this helps

Almost unstoppable head on your problem is getting people to fight the pikes which are slow.

Paul

will05 · Post by **will05** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:57 pm

I like my pike in 12 if I can as it mitigates shooting against them to a certain extent.
However I'm not much of a player.

Will

Gollum9 · Post by **Gollum9** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:44 pm

That's a fine point of the MF, missed that one! I will have a play around with the 800pt list and see if I can re-work it slightly.

Any more Seleucid experts out there that can offer any advice?

LeslieMitchell · Post by **LeslieMitchell** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:26 pm

My personal Later Seleucid 800 Point army is

4xTC
2x6 LF Average Slinger
1x6 LF Average Javelinmen
1x6 LF Average Archers
2x12 or 3x8 HF Average Pikemen
2x8 HF Superior Pikemen
2x2 Elephants
1x6 MF Average Drilled offensive spear
1x6 MF Average Undrilled Heavy Weapons
1x4 Agema Superior Drill

LeslieMitchell · Post by **LeslieMitchell** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:37 pm

At 650 I perfer using the early Successor (Seleucid), take Cavalry Lances rather than Cataphracts, save a few points.

The army I used at the Game Expo 2011

3xTC
2x6 LF Average Slingers
3x8 HF Average Pikemen
1x10 HF Average Pikemen
1x8 HF Superior Pikemen
1x6 MF Average Offensive Spearmen
2x2 Elephants
1x4 Cv Drilled Lancers

Did well until I forgot how to roll dice

IanB3406 · Post by **IanB3406** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:37 am

An interesting option is to take some imitation legionaires in the latter list....Here is my list used with some success from memory, and I am thinking to go back to it
800points
2*4 Cats
1*4 Elite Lancers
1*12 Pike
1*6 Armoured Thorokitai
2*4 Imitation legionaires (armoured superior ss types)
1*4 Jav Light Horse
1*4 Bow Light Horse
3 *6 Poor Light Foot
4TC

Cats on one flank, and push the infantry into someone's face. Elite lancers go down early in deployment at the center of the army, and are sent were needed. Some seem not to like them but they have done wonders always seeming to arrive in time. I might be missing one BG of 8 Pike here as well...I seem to remember 13 BGs.

LeslieMitchell · Post by **LeslieMitchell** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:18 am

IanB3406 wrote:An interesting option is to take some imitation legionaires in the latter list....Here is my list used with some success from memory, and I am thinking to go back to it
800points
2*4 Cats
1*4 Elite Lancers
1*12 Pike
1*6 Armoured Thorokitai
2*4 Imitation legionaires (armoured superior ss types)
1*4 Jav Light Horse
1*4 Bow Light Horse
3 *6 Poor Light Foot
4TC

Cats on one flank, and push the infantry into someone's face. Elite lancers go down early in deployment at the center of the army, and are sent were needed. Some seem not to like them but they have done wonders always seeming to arrive in time. I might be missing one BG of 8 Pike here as well...I seem to remember 13 BGs.

as Elite Lance and Cats cost the same you could always have 3x4 Cat

ravenflight · Post by **ravenflight** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:39 am

will05 wrote:I like my pike in 12 if I can as it mitigates shooting against them to a certain extent.
However I'm not much of a player.

Will

I've been considering BG's of 10 for pike. It doesn't add to their ability to absorb shooting (except for causalities) but it makes them a damn site harder to reduce their effectiveness.

I'm not sure I'm right here, as I have never used pike, but when I think about the Ptolemaic that I've got in lead that's what I think

LeslieMitchell · Post by **LeslieMitchell** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:56 am

ravenflight wrote:
will05 wrote:I like my pike in 12 if I can as it mitigates shooting against them to a certain extent.
However I'm not much of a player.

Will
I've been considering BG's of 10 for pike. It doesn't add to their ability to absorb shooting (except for causalities) but it makes them a damn site harder to reduce their effectiveness.

I'm not sure I'm right here, as I have never used pike, but when I think about the Ptolemaic that I've got in lead that's what I think

I've used Pike in tens, it does work, normal for the end unit and 4-3-3 formation does give at least a +POA from each column with the 4 being on the outside giving ++POA on any overlaps

Gollum9 · Post by **Gollum9** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:03 pm

Some great points to get me thinking, especially around the size of the pike BG's!

I have been looking through the list again and wondered if anyone had any experience using a mob BG? One problem I have with Seleucids is the fairly small frontage at times because of the pike blocks, expensive Cavalry etc. The mob for 20-24pts could perhaps cover one flank of the phalanx and tie up a more expensive unit for a while.

I maybe going crazy but would be interested in what people think.

Thanks

LeslieMitchell · Post by **LeslieMitchell** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:13 pm

Gollum9 wrote:Some great points to get me thinking, especially around the size of the pike BG's!

I have been looking through the list again and wondered if anyone had any experience using a mob BG? One problem I have with Seleucids is the fairly small frontage at times because of the pike blocks, expensive Cavalry etc. The mob for 20-24pts could perhaps cover one flank of the phalanx and tie up a more expensive unit for a while.

I maybe going crazy but would be interested in what people think.

Thanks

Mod don't last long in a flight, begin POOR and count as MF, I would always consider taking the Thureophoroi or Thorokitai, or Thacian and using POOR LF first.

I've charged POOR Mob with 4bases of Lance cavalry and them Break after 1 impact and 1 or 2 rounds of combat phase(s), needing 5 re rolling 6 is hard to win.

Another option to consider is to take the Thureophoroi or Thorokitai as HF, rather than MF to protect the flanks of your pike, with the Cats on the otherside.

ShrubMiK · Post by **ShrubMiK** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:35 pm

Agreed. I'm a bit of a fan of using poor HF as main battle troops (with sometimes painful results - like the 32 bases I completely failed to get into battle on Monday

) - but even I draw the line at poor MF!

Using them as a sacrifice to delay enemy for a couple of critical turns is possible - but I don't think you want to do that right by the flank of your phalanx if you can possibly avoid it.

IanB3406 · Post by **IanB3406** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:34 pm

as Elite Lance and Cats cost the same you could always have 3x4 Cat
---------------------------------------------
This seems to be the conventional wisdom, however I think having one BG and lancers is a good thing. They get where you need them faster and are about as effective.

Ian

LeslieMitchell · Post by **LeslieMitchell** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:30 pm

IanB3406 wrote:as Elite Lance and Cats cost the same you could always have 3x4 Cat
---------------------------------------------
This seems to be the conventional wisdom, however I think having one BG and lancers is a good thing. They get where you need them faster and are about as effective.

Ian

Only issue with having Cavalry is they can be pulled out of line but an opponent putting units within 5" but outside 4" so the Cats can't charge, this need to be consided when selecting a mix of Cats and cavalry.

ShrubMiK · Post by **ShrubMiK** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:34 pm

True. So if they are in a battle line with cats, keep them one MU furthet back.

eldiablito · Post by **eldiablito** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:56 pm

So, I have played both early successors, later seleucids and Alexandrian Macedonian. I have never TRULY gotten them to work, but I enjoy dusting them off and having a go with them. Here is my biased and easily refutable advice:

1) Thureophoroi is cheap Thorakatai. Use the armored unit almost every time and you will be MUCH happier. The only time I downgrade my Thorakatai is when I have trouble finding the points.
2) Thracians are undrilled. This doesn't seem like much, but your medium foot needs to be more maneuverable to be effective. So, if given a choice between Thorakatai, Thureophoroi and Thracians, I always field them in that order (and save your points on other battle groups). If I must take Thracians, I would only use them as rear support units and rarely if ever put the unit on the front line.
3)Take Agema in units of 4. At 6 stands, they loose a great deal of maneuverability. If you have the points, then take 2 battle groups of 4 each.
4)Poor light foot is best when cheap! Your light foot bow is great, but you'll find that the slingers are even better at their point cost. If you do not have slingers or you used up all the available stands, then field the bow as a second choice. I find that some people are envious of my 2 point poor slingers.
5)More pike! You will win or loose with your pike and 24cm of frontage isn't enough. This brings me to the next point...
6)Try the Agryspides (sp?). I'm talking about the heavy foot, armoured, superior, drilled, impact foot, swordsmen. These guys are GREAT! You save 1 point per model compared to your Roman counterparts, but you will only feel it when taking on other Romans. The reason that these wannabe Romans are so good is that your heavy foot choices are great at impact and if the enemy looses then they take an additional -1 to their cohesion roll. This really makes for your opponents to whine and suffer. I got one opponent to take a -3 to their cohesion roll and they nearly routed off the board on THEIR turn to charge!

Of course, advice 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 are all expensive. Later Seleucids are a small and expensive army (point wise). You make up for this with lots of drilled troops that can fight. If you go with earlier versions of the same list, then you rely more and more on your pikes. Because your winning force is slow and narrow, you will undoubtedly need some good cavalry and skirmishers to keep the enemy moving into your hedgehog of doom. So, in the end, you need to experiment and balance out how much cavalry versus infantry will work best for you.

Good luck!

ravenflight · Post by **ravenflight** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:41 am

Gollum9 wrote:Some great points to get me thinking, especially around the size of the pike BG's!

I have been looking through the list again and wondered if anyone had any experience using a mob BG? One problem I have with Seleucids is the fairly small frontage at times because of the pike blocks, expensive Cavalry etc. The mob for 20-24pts could perhaps cover one flank of the phalanx and tie up a more expensive unit for a while.

I maybe going crazy but would be interested in what people think.

Thanks

I don't know your list, but the only Mob I've found use for is Sparicus' revolt where they are average and thus give rear support or as rear support for other poor troops, like in the Ptolemaic poor pike for example.

Other than that, the increase in BG numbers can help, but you can often do the same thing with something small and useful, like skirmishers etc.

Gollum9 · Post by **Gollum9** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:09 am

I see your point on pikes winning the battle but have found in the past that players will try to avoid them and I won't have enough in the rest of the army if I invest too heavily in the pike.

Like the sound of the imitation legion. Which models/range do you use for these out of interest?

LeslieMitchell · Post by **LeslieMitchell** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:51 am

Gollum9 wrote:I see your point on pikes winning the battle but have found in the past that players will try to avoid them and I won't have enough in the rest of the army if I invest too heavily in the pike.

Like the sound of the imitation legion. Which models/range do you use for these out of interest?

I got the ones from Essex "MPA85 Roman Argyraspids", is you check the rule forum you can see a top view of these model with my bad painting

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Late Seleucid 650pt -> 800pt

Late Seleucid 650pt -> 800pt

for what it is worth