Multi-purpose weapons

uran21 · Post by **uran21** » Tue May 24, 2011 2:42 pm

Which units would you like to see as multi-purpose weapons switching their role between classes?
(Activated by the bottom right button.)

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Tue May 24, 2011 2:52 pm

We could do this for units like the Bf110 - to change from air superiority to ground attack?

For post relase we could look at allowing you to dig in your tanks, turning them in to static fortresses instead of mobile units.

Pupec · Post by **Pupec** » Tue May 24, 2011 3:03 pm

Definitely anti-air class from the possibility of a ground attack (88 mm Flak36, Flak40) and flakpanzers possibility of attacks on soft targets.

apanzerfan · Post by **apanzerfan** » Tue May 24, 2011 3:23 pm

iainmcneil wrote:We could do this for units like the Bf110 - to change from air superiority to ground attack?

that is a bad idea.

i bet the nazis did not remove bf110's weapons when they sent it strafing

Steakenglisch · Post by **Steakenglisch** » Tue May 24, 2011 3:47 pm

All Anti Air Guns (including the mobile units) should have such a Button. (from all countrys)
This will make a siege of an fortiefied town maybe more claiming?

And the idea to switch the Destroyers/Heavy Fighters/ Tac Bombers between Fighter and Tac Bomber sounds nice

Maybe Destroyers (naval) switching bitween normal and anti air mode? Destroyers often protected capital ships against air attacks, so a Destroyer could be used as a naval anti air gun?

Acererak · Post by **Acererak** » Tue May 24, 2011 3:56 pm

Another vote for AA gun turning to ground attack mode (soft or hard, depending on caliber)

And I still have no clear idea what Aircraft carriers are good for (just a mobile airport for aircraft resupply?) so maybe letting them have a dual option (AA/Naval Attack) could increase their uses. I am aware we won´t see many in this game, but won´t hurt when Panzer Corps goes Pacific...

MrWhite · Post by **MrWhite** » Tue May 24, 2011 5:12 pm

As said in this thread Beta 0.98 FEEDBACK I would also like to see the AA units in game as multipropose weapons, also from the other
thread :video look for 1:15 it displays ther very good the ground role of those "minor" flak cannons

Edit: Anothe vidoe that shows the ground ablility of the Flak 3,7 cm here it is around 0:19 :video

Digging in would be nice for infantry and maybe light units like Pak or Flak but not for tanks in my opinion

uran21 · Post by **uran21** » Tue May 24, 2011 5:30 pm

MrWhite wrote:Digging in would be nice for infantry and maybe light units like Pak or Flak but not for tanks in my opinion

What do you mean by digging in? We do have concept of entrenchment in the game. It is done automatically if unit is idle and not being attacked. Basic entrenchment and level of entrenchment per turn depends on terrain type where unit stands.

heinrich · Post by **heinrich** » Tue May 24, 2011 6:36 pm

I´m totally disliking this idea because active attacking flaks (like the 8.8cm) are not really reflecting the actual use of them and for every other unit like tanks or even fighter this is just NOT kiss... I hate it if somebody is using this as an argument but it feels this way

Every unit has it´s right to exist but subclasses for classes?

But I am thinking about an u-boat which can´t be seen or attacked as long as it´s submerged... hmmm

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Tue May 24, 2011 6:40 pm

Have infantry switch to Motov Cocktail mode where they cause suppression against tanks.

They will be guarenteed suppression against tanks. Get enough suppression and a weak tank can then get a hit on indestructible tanks like KV's, Maus Tigers.

heinrich · Post by **heinrich** » Tue May 24, 2011 6:56 pm

To change the actual used weapon is not a real changed purpose even you would supressing tanks with infs. This is a problem I see in many other "multi purpose" units like fighter of tanks.

Like I mentioned before you could change a sub to a "hidden-scout" unit but everthing else feels just overcomplicated.

Minenfeld · Post by **Minenfeld** » Tue May 24, 2011 7:11 pm

Weaponry like mobile AA guns should and must be multi-purpose. I was extremely disappointed that I could not use my Flak 37s against tanks in the Low Countries scenario. I purposefully bought a Flak 37 anticipating French heavy tanks and was unable to use them which ended with the destruction of my Flak 37.

Aircraft such as the BF-110 should also be able to attack ground targets. They were multi-role fighters, after all.

heinrich · Post by **heinrich** » Tue May 24, 2011 7:27 pm

Yeah that´s right but to use a flak like a "move & attack" unit like every other one in this special tactical game is just not right. And if you would think about what you mentioned about "multirole fighter" you´ll certainly come to this conclusion:

Put torpedos under tactical bomber for anti ship measures. Let Inf use molotov cocktails for an effective anti tank attack. Use flaks as an offensive anti tank unit..... I have thousand other ideas for multi purpose weapons/units. A fighter is a fighter. So basically an anti-air unit. Multirole or not. It´s not possible to define a sub class for every unit in the game?!

Where is the point to change a Messerschmidt BF110 from fighter to destroyer? just for raising the movement range and maybe lower the anti-air attack stat and raise the hard attack stat for balancing reasons? Where should this start and where to stop?

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Tue May 24, 2011 7:30 pm

^ It never stops... We are in the twilight zone!

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Tue May 24, 2011 8:05 pm

Since 'transformer' units are a new concept, the should start out for only a few critical units. Mostly AA and AD units, because they need to be made useful for 'offensive' based game play so they have a appropriate place to justify a 'core' slot.

No fighters or aircraft.

All AA and AD units (especially German).

Some russian assault guns. Su-76, Su-122, and Su-152. Leave the rest as either pure artillery or pure assault anti-tank gun for now.

heinrich · Post by **heinrich** » Tue May 24, 2011 8:11 pm

I´m curious how to implement this in a useful way but this is the reason why I like betas

You´ll never know what comes with the next version!

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Tue May 24, 2011 9:00 pm

^ that's easy...

A rabbit of of a hat!

Panzer3L · Post by **Panzer3L** » Tue May 24, 2011 9:16 pm

heinrich wrote:Yeah that´s right but to use a flak like a "move & attack" unit like every other one in this special tactical game is just not right.

Agreed.
I also think that heavy towed AD,PaK and Arty should not be able to move and fire.
One hex in the game may be something between 5-20km and i don't see how a 88Flak crew would "carry" its gun
this far over an active battlefield and then move in position and save's the day.
Also those heavy gun units should not be able to retreat with their weapon.

As for the switching role feature.

When u put an experienced fighter pilot into a different kind of fighter plane he may have some time to adjust
but he will still be expirienced in dogfighting.
But if u put that same fighterpilot into a bomber he won't be an experienced bomber pilot even if knows the plane.
Same goes for Anti Air/Pak,Torpedo/Dive bomber units etc.

So i prefer the "old ways" on this matter for gameplay and realism reasons.

2cents

heinrich · Post by **heinrich** » Tue May 24, 2011 9:33 pm

Panzer3L wrote:I also think that heavy towed AD,PaK and Arty should not be able to move and fire.
One hex in the game may be something between 5-20km and i don't see how a 88Flak crew would "carry" its gun
this far over an active battlefield and then move in position and save's the day.
Also those heavy gun units should not be able to retreat with their weapon.

That´s exactly what I wanted to say, thank you for the explanation

About the "move&attack" rule of the arty. I mentioned this before in another thread and hope it will be corrected because it makes the arty too powerful.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Tue May 24, 2011 9:37 pm

Special rules for unit classes might be more realistic, but for a lightweight and relatively simple war game like PG, this goes a little too far. It's somewhat confusing, and requires special explanation to the players to describe exactly which units have their own special rules and what they are.

One hex can represent any amount of terrain. A multiplayer scenario coming up soon takes place entirely within the bounds of a single city.

Aircraft don't need to be multi-purpose, they already are. A fighter 110 can do everything a tac bomber 110 can do, with one exception: intercept. Here's the problem: A FlaK gun set as multipurpose changes the angle of the barrel to inform players what role they are fulfilling. Same with a Russian assault gun, horizontal changes to 45 degrees.

What visual aid will differentiate a fighter 110 from a tac bomber 110?

As for 'move and fire' artillery, we disagree. It ties into a problem of over-complication (special units with special rules, which BTW recon units will suffer from but this is being addressed), but it's not too powerful. If it is too powerful, the stats of artillery can be tweaked, as they have been several times so far. The idea was to add a degree of flexibility to the game, to depart from the Panzer General system of absolute unit action. Each unit had to move and shoot all at once, there were only 2 units states and now there are 4.