Kushite Army list, thoughts needed!

[warfareeast]

Obviously without a playtest yet its hard to cnstruct a reasonable force, however based on reading the rules this is intitally what I've come up with. I'd appreciate some opinions as it looks very weak to me, having only 3 effective strike groups. My impression of the basic Kushite Bow under AOW is they will be regarded as massive targets for just about everything.

IC CinC
FC SG
FC AG Libyan Egyptian
1 BG 4X hvy Chariots, Superior, undrilled, bow,
1 BG 6X cavalry, Superior, undrilled, armoured, light spear, swordsmen
1 BG 10X Hvy foot, meshwesh superior, undrilled, protected, impact foot, swordsmen (Ally)
1 BG 8X Light Foot, Average, Undrilled, Unprotected, Bow
2 BG each of 8X Medium Foot,Average, Undrilled, Unprotected, Bow
1 BG 8X Medium Foot,Average, Undrilled, Protected, Bow
1 BG 8X Light Foot, Average, Undrilled, Unprotected, Javelins, Light Spear
1 BG 8X Light Foot, Average, Undrilled, Unprotected, Sling
1 BG 4X Light Chariots, Superior, Drilled, Bow (Ally)
1 BG 6X Light Foot, Average Undrilled,Unprotected, Javelins,Light Spear (Ally)

Regards
Matt

[jre]

I do not know the list, but I see too much LF and no heavy foot. Big numbers but no winning BGs besides the Heavy chariots. And the LF BGs are too big. Bows can be surprisingly resilient with the right terrain or supporting foot.

And I would go for TCs and get 4 generals. The Heavy chariots should have an integral TC...

Light foot needs something to evade behind, and unless the terrain gods are with you, that means heavy foot or shock mounted.

Just my own preferences, however.

Jos?©

[warfareeast]

I do not know the list, but I see too much LF and no heavy foot. Big numbers but no winning BGs besides the Heavy chariots. And the LF BGs are too big. Bows can be surprisingly resilient with the right terrain or supporting foot.

And I would go for TCs and get 4 generals. The Heavy chariots should have an integral TC...

Light foot needs something to evade behind, and unless the terrain gods are with you, that means heavy foot or shock mounted.

Just my own preferences, however.

Jos?©

there are no hvy foot in the Kushite list other than the meshwesh ally foot. The best they can do is medium foot with light spear and then only upto 12 elements.

cheers
Matt

[shall]

Matt

you will probably find you can live with 2 TCs if you have an IC.

if you are allowed more meshwesh work towards 2 8s perhaps

otherwise it look pretty good

The HCh are really powerful and the LCh and Cav are very good too

meshwesh are very solid against most things

Have no fear

Si

[bddbrown]

My thoughts - mostly comments about troop types and balance rather than this army itself. This is a convenient post to get a few points that I've been meaning to post for a while.

- Light Foot with bow are excellent value - so long as they are backed up by something more substantial they can cause a real drain on enemy cohesion before the real crunch. Other Light Foot are less good value, but have their uses.

- Not sure about Heavy Chariots myself. I cannot make my mind up but my gut feeling is they are a poor man's knight - worse in shooting and against cavalry lancers. But regardless we don't see too many of them around so I reckon they are slightly over-pointed.

- Don't understand Light Chariots. They seem to be a little too weak for the points costing, and certainly the game I played NKE I felt they were a cross between Light Horse and Cavalry, taking the worst point of both without really getting the full benefit of either.

- Medium foot bowmen are cannon fodder for just about anything in the open, and especially for the types of troop you tend to see on the table. In the rough they can be good to exert pressure on troops outside the rough, but if they meet Dailami/Ghazi style Superior Impact Foot then it is all over. I've never made them work myself and have invariably picked up easy attrition points when they've been placed against me. I would love to know how well they did in real battles?

- The MeshWesh are nice, because they are a good solid anti-foot contigent and balance out the army nicely. I would really take two blocks as this gives you a nice wide frontage that can be used to bust open a door in someone elses foot battle line.

- At the moment it is hard to see past the FC, 3xTC general combination, although with the new rallying rules it may be worthwile taking an IC, although I am not convinced.

- Looking at your list I would say you need to come up with a combination of troops that allows you to execute a couple of basic plans. At the moment I would say you don't have enough of one thing and making the army work together would be difficult. However, the best advice I can give is get it on the table and see what works and does not work. There's no substitute for pushing the figures around the table.

[terrys]

- Not sure about Heavy Chariots myself. I cannot make my mind up but my gut feeling is they are a poor man's knight - worse in shooting and against cavalry lancers. But regardless we don't see too many of them around so I reckon they are slightly over-pointed.

On HCH.......
HCH are he equal of Knights at Impact, and melee
They are worse against bowfire vs H.Armoured knights (but are 3pts cheaper)
They are better than knights against heavy weapons (since they don't have armour)
They are as good as H.arm'd knights against everything else and better than Armoured knights.
They have the added bonus of shooting with one dice each - and if they can hold off the charge for long enough may be able to cause a DSR before charging.
----Use them as substitute knights/lancers in you biblical army.

- Don't understand Light Chariots. They seem to be a little too weak for the points costing, and certainly the game I played NKE I felt they were a cross between Light Horse and Cavalry, taking the worst point of both without really getting the full benefit of either.

On LCH.....
They shoot as well as cavalry in single rank
They receive fire as if cavalry in single rank
They get full combat dice in combat so don't have to reform before charging (or if charged)
They evade as if single rank cavalry
They can (and do) beat infantry in the open, if their shooting manages to DSR them.
----Use them as substitute bow-armed cavalry in your biblical army.

In both cases you have to take a little more care in avoiding casualties, but both are great troop types to use. (I even managed to beat 2 pike blocks and a spear block recently with LCH, charging them while DSR)

- Medium foot bowmen are cannon fodder for just about anything in the open, and especially for the types of troop you tend to see on the table.

True - although I found them to be extremely useful support troops for my 38 bases of Ostrogothic cavalry at the weekend. First time I've fielded them in years - 126 figures of Gothic cavalry on the table...Looked great!!!

[jre]

I see that army and wonder, what can score attrition points? Massed light foot, if the enemy does not have foot bow or cavalry light horse, so it is unlikely. The heavy chariots, that unlike Hammy helped my Hitite to crush a NKE and that really put a Medieval German in a bind. The cavalry, may be, chasing skirmishers and weak projectile cavalry. And the Meshwesh, any foot that gets close except legionnaries and good quality hoplites/pikemen. The problem with low quality bows is that you cannot take the fight to the enemy, but you need the enemy to come to you, so they are not a decisive unit, unless you are very lucky. I somehow read the Meshwesh as MF, which is why my previous post must sound as foolish, as MF Impact foot is too vulnerable to mounted shock troops.

I would get, as the other posters said, two Meshwesh BGs, with two skirmisher BGs to cover flanks, soak enemy projectiles and generally make an all-round self sufficient force. Then the existing mobile wing, with chariots and cavalry, with the option to skirmish the enemy or going for the throat. And then the bows, that will go in the flanks of the meshwesh or rough terrain or both. That will include both MF and LF, so that would reduce the number of LF and bow BGs to pay for those Meshwesh.

In our games more than once a battle has been over before the main lines met because one side's light forces have been run out of the table.

Jos?©

[rbodleyscott]

HCH are he equal of Knights at Impact

Not true (in V 5.01) against actual knights/lancers, but true against other types.

[neilhammond]

Medium foot bowmen are cannon fodder for just about anything in the open, and especially for the types of troop you tend to see on the table. In the rough they can be good to exert pressure on troops outside the rough, but if they meet Dailami/Ghazi style Superior Impact Foot then it is all over. I've never made them work myself and have invariably picked up easy attrition points when they've been placed against me. I would love to know how well they did in real battles?

Yes, I've had similar problems with my Roman auxilia archers. Against Sassanid cavalry they seem to get ridden down relatively easily - it's more a question of how many rounds can they last before the rout. If they meet reasonable foot they look equally vulnerable. Perhaps my expectation is set by DBM where auxilia archers (BwO) vs Sassanids (CvS) is a reasonably balanced fight. I can't think of that many historical examples off the top of my head to judge one way or the other.

I'll still take a few archer blocks with me to Leeds, but my initial conclusion is that I need to use them in 'sniper' blocks of 4, operating from behind heavier troops (in which case, why not just go for LF bow?).

Neil