How do you stop a Swiss Keil with Colunelas?

Vespasian28 · Post by **Vespasian28** » Thu May 19, 2011 5:09 pm

Just finished updating my early Italian Wars French. Next is the Spanish(aka Trastamarans).

Some time away from a game but has anyone else played these chaps off against each other?
Obviously there is the traditional use of Field Fortifications against the Swiss but any other hints and tips?

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Thu May 19, 2011 5:33 pm

Well the Colunelas get to shoot that may help.

My theory is that once the Keil comes in you have to attack it on its flank. This will eventually start to give you more dice and overlaps with the ++POA. Also the Keil depending on its size has to turn bases to fight and this may take away its POAs and you can kill it that way.

I view it sort of like army ants trying to swarm a giant grasshopper. Hopefully its not an elite grasshopper.

(Yes I realize no flank charges to disrupt it and no - POA for fighting in two directions. But making it fight in two directions still effects things in other ways.)

stecal · Post by **stecal** » Thu May 19, 2011 11:41 pm

I think the Colunelas need artillery support to pick away at the pikes at range, hitting at 3+ vs those Keils & ignoring their screening skirmishers. Use Ginettes to slow down the pikes so they are a target for a while. When the Keils are shot up, then send in the colunelas.

If that doesn't work to stop them... well, welcome to history, not much did stop them in their time!

Aetius · Post by **Aetius** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:54 pm

I'd agree about Artillery but I'd also go back to your history & buy Field Defenses & make use of terrain.

Channel the Keils into killing grounds - remember that the Swiss (home) terrain is Mountainous, so if you win the Initiative you can choose that instead of your own. Keils are not much good on steep hills, in forests and even with all their many special rules even they cannot get through Impassable terrain.

If you win terrain choice, make the most of it; choose a double steep hill, covered with a double brush & a village on top of it as your compulsory - then go for other terrain you can ambush from with your shot & swd & bucklers, but which mucks the Keils up good & proper with disorder - a Gully, a Forest (both max size), and then a couple of Impassables (I like lakes as you can shoot guns over these - although if I am defending against a lot of guns I have a couple of really large (within the 12" radius) craggy mountains I can deploy instead

The Keils are also only any good if they have something solid to actually hit, so keep your own Tercios behind field defences with covering guns. Using the Ginetes, lighter horse & your own LF to kill off his skirmishers & support troops will give you a huge advantage (as well as Victory Points) as it leaves him vulnerable .
The Grasshopper v Ant comparison is a good one, but remember designing a force just to defeat Swiss might leave you also vulnerable to other armies ...

Aetius · Post by **Aetius** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:57 pm

Opps ... that's a 12" diametre not radius LoL

Niceas · Post by **Niceas** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:55 am

Also, don't forget that you can detach shot from half of your Colunelas, and if you make those superior, then as noted, use field defenses, and remember that any body attacking across field defenses has to stop one inch away and then attack next turn, thus giving more time to shoot. Make the most of it.

Sarmaticus · Post by **Sarmaticus** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:57 pm

Aetius wrote:I'd agree about Artillery but I'd also go back to your history & buy Field Defenses & make use of terrain.

Channel the Keils into killing grounds - remember that the Swiss (home) terrain is Mountainous

Understandable but odd as most of the parts of Switzerland most likely to be invaded would be rolling country not the mountains of The Bernese or Zuricher Oberland, Inner Switzerland or the Grisons.

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:45 pm

I suspect not for the Spanish. They would have to come up from Italy most likely. If so it would be via the Grisons.

Vespasian28 · Post by **Vespasian28** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:43 pm

Thanks for the extra advice, just need an opportunity to try it out. Swiss kiels in question are part of the French army so mountains not an option but I like the idea of lakes

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:15 pm

timmy1 wrote:I suspect not for the Spanish. They would have to come up from Italy most likely. If so it would be via the Grisons.

Not at the time of the Italian Wars, as far as I'm aware.

The Swabian War between the Habsburgs (non-Spanish) was mainly fought on the north/north-eastern borders of the Old Swiss Confederacy, some of which is surprisingly flat, especially around Lake Constance. The only major battle in the Grisons was between the Three Leagues and the Austrians.

The Spanish did take the valley to the south of the Grisons/Three Leagues in the early 17th century, which is called Valtellina (home to the best pasta dish in the world

).

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:36 pm

Aetius wrote: If you win terrain choice, make the most of it; choose a double steep hill, covered with a double brush & a village on top of it as your compulsory - then go for other terrain you can ambush from with your shot & swd & bucklers, but which mucks the Keils up good & proper with disorder - a Gully, a Forest (both max size), and then a couple of Impassables (I like lakes as you can shoot guns over these - although if I am defending against a lot of guns I have a couple of really large (within the 12" radius) craggy mountains I can deploy instead

All of which makes a mockery of the Swiss unerring ability to surprise opponents by coming through such terrain.

Sarmaticus wrote: Understandable but odd as most of the parts of Switzerland most likely to be invaded would be rolling country not the mountains of The Bernese or Zuricher Oberland, Inner Switzerland or the Grisons.

Sometimes the terrain options for armies leave something to be desired. As you say, a decent amount of Switzerland is rolling countryside.

By contrast, none of the Italian armies in FoGAM or FoGR have mountains in their terrain list, not even the Italian "Hill" Tribes and Samnites, somewhat surprising given most of the geography of Italy is basically mountains. Compare to the Welsh, whose bumps get called "Mountains"

footslogger · Post by **footslogger** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:48 pm

stecal wrote:I think the Colunelas need artillery support to pick away at the pikes at range, hitting at 3+ vs those Keils & ignoring their screening skirmishers. Us

I think I've missed something. How does artillery hit keils on a 3?

stecal · Post by **stecal** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:53 pm

It should, but sadly the rules says its a 4 after all.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:02 pm

Well there goes your effective strategy of using artillery then, guess its back to the drawing board for your new strategy.

How do you stop a Swiss Keil with Colunelas?

How do you stop a Swiss Keil with Colunelas?

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Re: How do you stop a Swiss Keil with Colunelas?

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