Early 30 Years War Swedish list

[Luddite]

Hi all,

I'm relatively new to FOG and FOGR, and so don't have the experience of knowing how to build and play the armies (yet).

For FOGR we've chosen to do 30YW, and i've gone with the Early Swedes.

Here's the list;


800 points

1x CinC - FC
2x SG - TC

1x Karabin Ryttare (4) - Hrs Armd Avg Carbine/-/Pistol
2x Latta Ryttare (4) - Det Hrs Armd Avg -/Pistol/Pistol
1x Hakkapeliita (4) - Caval Armd Elite -/ImpMtd/Pistol

1x Yellow brigade (7) - MF Unar Elite Salvo/Salvo/-
HF Armd Elite -/Pike/Pike
Swedish brigade + Regimental guns

1x Veteran brigade (7) - MF Unar Superior Salvo/Salvo/-
HF Armd Superior -/Pike/Pike
Swedish brigade + Regimental guns

2x Foot brigades (7) - MF Unar Avg Salvo/Salvo/-
HF Armd Avg -/Pike/Pike
Swedish brigade

3x Commanded shot (2) - MF Unar Avg Salvo/Salvo/-
Regimental guns

1x Medium artillery (2) - Avg Med Art


i'm planning to use this small elite force in a highly aggressive manner, really pushing into the opponent with the Hakkapeliita, Yellow and Veteran brigades in particular. I'm hoping quality will beat quantity! And as far as i can see, the salvo fire won't stand in a firefight so i need to get into impact and melee as quickly as possible.

My opponents will have contemporary armies - mostly Caroline English and Catholic German, but there may be a Polish and a Dutch army knocking about too.


So, a few questions...

What are the strengths of this army?
What are its weaknesses?
Have i made any glaring tactical errors in building this army?


I intend to use the Commanded Shot as they are supposed to be - supporting the mounted troops, and put Regt Guns with them to boost the firepower a bit. Is this a good move?

Should i drop the Regt guns to the minimum and use the points elsewhere?

What general tactical hints can you give me?


All comments/advice gratefully received!

[hazelbark]

I don't have the list with me but can your commanded shot have regimental guns? I didn't think so.

Also the problem with commadned shot and mounted is it really slows the mounted down. So if you are movign aggressively its a problem.

Also commanded shot tends to be more useful I think in the following situations:
mounted only armoured and worse and likely fighting better armour
mounted that shoots in some fashion
mounted that is being used defensively and doesn't out strip its support.

[hazelbark]

As for your plan. The issue for your foot is will your 4 brigades be able to punch through the 6-7 that you will likely face?

This calls for supporting the infantry attack and not allowing the enemy to get too much firepower to fall on your foot.

[Luddite]

thanks for the replies.

I don't have the list with me but can your commanded shot have regimental guns? I didn't think so.

Yes they can.
Its all or nothing though - if any do they all must...

Also the problem with commanded shot and mounted is it really slows the mounted down. So if you are movign aggressively its a problem.

Aye, but then i don't like my mounted troops getting out of step with the infantry anyway (not sure if this is a disadvantage in FOGR like in other rules?) so i can't see this as being too much of a problem. Still double moving up to 'contact' (6MU), and in any case, if i really need the mounted to get a move on they can leave the commanded shot behind.

While i'm planning to be aggressive, i want the whole army to hit together. My experience with many rulesets is unsupported cavalry in mixed armies are usually on a hiding to nothing...

The issue for your foot is will your 4 brigades be able to punch through the 6-7 that you will likely face?

I have superior and elite whereas most of the opposition are generally average.
In FOG i've found that superior troops tend to overcome larger numbers of average troops - the only issue being taking flank hits.

Is this the case in FOGR?

This calls for supporting the infantry attack and not allowing the enemy to get too much firepower to fall on your foot.

Agreed.
The Swedish brigades are 7 bases rather than 6 so i'm hoping to get through the shooting into impact/mell relatively intact (where the salvo fire should give me the edge.

So given that i'll probably be outnumbered, what do you reccommend i do to mitigate that?

Cheers
Ludd

[petedalby]

Best of luck with your Swedes.

I'm new to FoGR as well and am slightly concerned that the Swedes don't seem to be featuring too well in competition terms. Now this could be because the better players have effective tactics against them - but as yet I have no experience.

If you have a smaller army than your opponents getting plenty of terrain down might be of benefit?

I believe that Draggons are pretty effective too - and you don't seem to have any?

Hopefully more experienced players will give you (us) some pointers.

[timmy1]

As someone who played Swedes at the UK Nationals last year (and has played them a number of times since) without a single victory, I think you will find this army very narrow. If your opponent chooses an open terrain type, make sure you limit his options to place open terrain on the flanks - if you do not have something to anchor your flanks on you will die quickly. You might also find that you get terrain placed in the middle of your opponent's set up area (or your own) to break up and slow your attack.

You will have very little rear support with this list and the army will really be very narrow.

Pete is correct, Dragoons are a must and in BGs of 4s. If the opponent has any LH they will most probably delay your thrust in the centre. The dragoons can either chase off enemy LH or occupy any poor terrain and are really tough to get out if it is within 12MU of the side edge.

Also care with Elite troops. In this game (other than in the very early period) troops will more often break through casulties rather than failing CTs. Elites die just as often as other troops when shot at. Unless the Elite troops deploy masked by other troops or last in a position that is not obvious they will really attract enemy artillery fire - to the extent that I have stopped using them.

[petedalby]

Good advice Tim - thanks.

Personally I tend not to use Elites and the points saved by dropping them to Superior might give you those Dragoons?

[deadtorius]

Dragoon work well in 4's, with only three you only shoot with 1 die at long range and you will not last as long due to auto breaking on 2 base losses, same as a BG of four bases. They need some kind of terrain to hide in, especially from cavalry. If they get caught in the open they will get massacred.

[Luddite]

Interesting. So most of you think i absolutely need a single unit of Dragoons.

Why?

What do they give me that the rest of the army doesn't?

[rbodleyscott]

Interesting. So most of you think i absolutely need a single unit of Dragoons.

Why?

What do they give me that the rest of the army doesn't?

Nothing vital.

I originally thought that we might have under-priced Dragoons. However, after many games I find them less and less useful and they often get in the way.

I now only take them if they are compulsory. I can think of better uses for the points - for example, something that can at least be used to give Support to other troops.

Here is my suggested 800 points list. I have not yet tried it, but based on my experience with other lists it should work if used in the way I envisage.


3 x TC (I find these sufficient)

1 x 4 German cuirassiers, Horse, Superior, Heavily armoured, Impact Pistol, Melee Pistol (operate with Commanded shot on attacking wing)
1 x 4 Latta Rytarre, Horse, Average, Armoured, Impact Pistol, Melee Pistol (support and "refused" flank protection)
1 x 4 Karbinryttare, Horse, Average, Unarmoured, Carbine, Melee Pistol (support!)

3 x Veteran colour regiments - Superior Swedish brigades with Regimental Guns (this is the assault force)
5 x Mercenary regiments, Average pike & shot (these hold the rest of the enemy off while the assault force does the business)

2 x Average Commanded Shot (operate with the German cuirassiers)

1 x 2 MArt (Try to put these somewhere useful but not in the way of own assault)

[petedalby]

Wow! That is a scary assault force Richard - 3 Superior Swedish Brigades! But no Finns? Do let us know how you get on if you use it?

My design is very different but of course I do not have your experience and my paper theories may prove worthless when I do eventually get them all painted up.

[rbodleyscott]

Wow! That is a scary assault force Richard - 3 Superior Swedish Brigades! But no Finns? Do let us know how you get on if you use it?

My design is very different but of course I do not have your experience and my paper theories may prove worthless when I do eventually get them all painted up.

The problem with expensive cavalry is that they only work well if the enemy gives you a weaker target, and does not have commanded shot. They aren't much good against foot.

I prefer to surrender the mounted initiative to the enemy and blow him apart with massed foot.

Of course Alasdair Harley prefers lots of cavalry and does very well with them, so it is no doubt a matter of preference and style as much as anything else. However, I find that my fighting style can usually hold him to a bloody draw, even if I cannot beat him.

However, with the Early 30YW Swedish army, I feel that attempting to have high quality troops in every arm will just result in the army being too small.

[Luddite]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the advice so far, especially you Richard!
I couldn't quite fit your list into 800pts (got it down to 809pts), but i'm getting the impression that size trumps quality?

OK, so i've tweaked the list a little bit to take on board everyone's advice.

So here's the revised list for a slightly more balanced, less elite force...


Commanders

3x TC

Mounted

1x Karabin Ryttare (4) - Horse - Unarmoured - Average - Carbine/Pistol
2x Latta Ryttare (4) - Determined horse - Armoured - Average - Pistol/Pistol
1x Finnish Hakkapeliita (4) - Cavaliers - Armoured - Superior - Impact mtd/Pistol

Foot

2x Commanded shot (2) - Medium foot - Unarmoured - Superior - Salvo/Salvo (support Hakkapeliita)

2x Veteran brigade (7)
- Medium foot - Unarmoured - Superior - Salvo/Salvo
- Heavy foot - Armoured - Superior - Pike/Pike
Swedish bgd + Superior regt guns

2x Foot brigade (7)
- Medium foot - Unarmoured - Average - Salvo/Salvo
- Heavy foot - Armoured - Average - Pike/Pike
Swedish bgd

2x German mercenaries (6)
- Medium foot - Unarmoured - Average - Musket/-
- Heavy foot - Armoured - Average - Pike/Pike

Artillery

1x 12-Pounder guns (2) - Medium artillery - Average - Med Art



This gives me a couple more BGs, a solid centre and two good mounted wings.
Despite the advice, i can't see much of a use for the Dragoons at the moment (it may become clear through play, but if anyone can explain why they are so vital i may tweak them in...)


I think this still maintains a decent attacking force (veteran brigades and supported Finnish cavalry) while giving a few more BG to bulk out the army, coming in at 799pts. I'll still be outshot by enemy musketry but this is fine as it will 'keep my eye ont he ball' with the Swedish brigades and ensure that i get them into close combat rather than standng off.

And given that these are Swedes, it seems churlish to use Germans in large numbers!

Is this a better force?

[rbodleyscott]

I couldn't quite fit your list into 800pts (got it down to 809pts)

Strange, I still make it 798 points. Unfortunately it is illegal as there is no date when it can all be used.

This gives me a couple more BGs, a solid centre and two good mounted wings.

One good mounted wing. Average Determined Horse really aren't that great.

[Luddite]

Average Determined Horse really aren't that great.

They do sound a bit...lacklustre.

[footslogger]

I prefer to surrender the mounted initiative to the enemy and blow him apart with massed foot.

Footsloggers like to hear this. I think this is a pretty good strategy with this set.

[hazelbark]

I prefer to surrender the mounted initiative to the enemy and blow him apart with massed foot.

Footsloggers like to hear this. I think this is a pretty good strategy with this set.

Trying to figure out how to counter program this. Meaning get enough mounted to win and turn on the infantry in time to effect the infantry fight.

[footslogger]

I prefer to surrender the mounted initiative to the enemy and blow him apart with massed foot.

Footsloggers like to hear this. I think this is a pretty good strategy with this set.

Trying to figure out how to counter program this. Meaning get enough mounted to win and turn on the infantry in time to effect the infantry fight.

I'm thinking foot go hunting mounted - what's to fear?

[Blathergut]

deadtorius and I have yet to see a flank collapse soon enough before the centre grinds into the stuff opposite it

[timmy1]

Try playing Poles - they tend to be able to win early on the flank.