Belgium Bug

[Morris]

During a recent pbem , there is something happened quite interesting :
when Ally tried to DOW Belgium & occupied Belgium in Nov 1940 , the game is still appears the words which when the Axis occupys Belgium that the ally troops reduce 20% effective because of the Belgium fall , so does the words about the Canadians reinforcement .........

[metolius]

Yup! I can attest to it. It would seem that in the case of an *Allied* invasion of Belgium, the Allies should not suffer a moral loss.

[pk867]

Hi,

In this particular game where the Axis has invaded Britain and the historical timing being way off.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I will fix this and make an update

[schwerpunkt]

I will fix this and make an update

You might recall some time back that I pointed out that some weird things would happen if the French invaded Belgium (and that they could knock it out in one turn) but it was thought at the time that it would be rare and that the allies should suffer some penalty for invading Belgium....

[metolius]

I suspect that the morale loss is due to the fact that the French and British troops were promised Belgian brothels, only to find that the Germans had arrange immediate transportation of these 'desirable-elements' to Amsterdam.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I will fix this and make an update

You might recall some time back that I pointed out that some weird things would happen if the French invaded Belgium (and that they could knock it out in one turn) but it was thought at the time that it would be rare and that the allies should suffer some penalty for invading Belgium....

Good point.

I can easily change Belgium to pro-Allied in the scenarios. Shall I do that?

But what about the situation if e. g. the Axis decides to launch a 1940 Barbarossa and use Belgium as a buffer to prevent the Allies from entering Germany except across the Rhine and the Siegfried line. Isn't this the same issue we had with Poland where we made sure Poland DoW'ed Germany after turn 2 if Germany didn't DoW Poland?

Option 1: One thing we can do is to let Belgium be Pro-Allied at the start of the 1939 scenario and change the flag to neutral in April 1940 or something. This means the Allies can DoW Belgium without penalties if Germany hasn't first DoW'ed Belgium.

I think the current game had a problem with Belgium being DoW'ed by the Allies early. The reason is that if the Allies do that and take Brussels they got the morale penalty while Germany was busy in the east so they would have recovered a bit before Germany gets back.

Option 2: One compromise is to just remove the penalty hit for the Allies by taking Brussels if the turn is later than June 1940. That means the penalty hit will always be there during the time when the Germans would normally attack Belgium and France. So if the Germans turn east instead then you can enter Belgium during the Summer of 1940.

Option 3: A third option could be to make Belgium pro-Allied and let them join the Allies e. g. late 1940. This way the Germans better get Belgium before they join the Allies. This is a very clean solution which prevents Allied adventures into Germany in 1939-1940 and later in the game Belgium won't be a permanent neutral buffer.

Which option do you prefer?

[pk867]

I prefer option #3.

[rkr1958]

Option #3 would be the cleanest one from a game perspective and the one with the least risk of introduction a bug. If Option #3 can be supported as historically pausible then I vote for that one. However; if it can't then I would vote for Option #1.

[JimR]

If option #3 is deemed historically plausible, yes. But if it is not historically plausible, then I favor option #1.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

This link shows that Belgium was actually not very pro-Allied:
http://worldwar2database.com/html/belgium.htm

Belgium wanted to remain neutral and so did Holland. It was only when they were attacked they reluctantly accepted the other side to join their territory. So if Germany turned east instead of west then I believe it's very unlikely that Belgium would join the Allies.

At the same time the Allies didn't have the will or firepower to wage a war in 1939 against a neutral country. A very early Allied aggression against neutral countries like Belgium and Holland would certainly be seen in USA as a war of aggression and not in the interest to protect against Germany. So we could e. g. do the following.

The USLL destroyed will NOT be given to the UK in March 1941 because the USA looks upon the Allies as aggressors too. Allied convoy sizes would be e. g. 25% lower until USA enters the war. This because it would be harder to generate as much supplies for UK in USA if the US public was more hostile towards the Allies.

By doing this we don't prevent the Allies from doing what they want, but it has a consequence. They gain an early benefit of not losing efficiency in the west, but they pay the long term PP price for some time. Germany can then move on to blitzkrieg because there is no buffer between France and Germany.

Please vote on each of the following:
1. Allied DoW upon Belgium or Holland will not spawn the USLL destroyer
2. Allied DoW upon Belgium or Holland will lower the convoy size by:
a. 5%
b. 10%
c. 15%
d. 20%
e. 25%

[rkr1958]

1. Allied DoW upon Belgium or Holland will not spawn the USLL destroyer - Yes

2. Allied DoW upon Belgium or Holland will lower the convoy size by: - e. 25%

[Schnurri]

1. Allied DoW upon Belgium or Holland will not spawn the USLL destroyer - Yes

2. Allied DoW upon Belgium or Holland will lower the convoy size by: - e. 25%

What happens then with the Canadian reinforcements? They never come in?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Yes, they come in because they're not US.

[pk867]

Hi,
#1 yes

#2 25%

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I coded the following for GS v2.00ar

• An Allied DoW upon Holland or Belgium prior to US entry will anger the US public with the following effects:
- USLL destroyer will not spawn if not already spawned
- Convoys are 25% smaller until USA joins the Allies

• A message about this will be shown when you make the DoW

The message looks like:
The Allied aggression against Belgium has angered USA. The USLL destroyer will not be given and convoys are %s1 % smaller until USA joins the Allies

A similar message for Holland is added too. The %s1 will be replaced with the following value in general.txt (currently 25%):
CONVOY_LOSS_IF_ALLIED_AGGRESSION 25 /* Convoy sizes be this percentage lower prior to US entry if the Allied DoW'ed Belgium or Holland */

[Blathergut]

Sounds good. A major negative consequence is better than just not allowing it at all. This makes the best path the more historical one.

(yes and 25%)(make the consequence major)