Axis minor countries changing sides

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:10 pm

I just studied how the different Axis minor countries behaved near the end of the war.

Romania:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania_in_World_War_II

Romania actually changed side and DoW'ed Germany in August 1944. They fought alongside the Russians in Transylvania, Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

We could simulate this by letting all Romanian units still left on the map when Bucharest is captured to change to Russian control instead of being destroyed.

Bulgaria:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_ ... rld_War_II

Bulgaria did the same as Romania and DoW'ed Germany in September 1944. Bulgarian forces helped the Russians liberate Yugoslavia

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:17 pm

Hungary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary_du ... rld_War_II

Hungary cooperated with Germany and they Hungarian armies surrendered with the German armies when Budapest fell in February 1945. So the Hungarians did not change side.

Finland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_h ... rld_War_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_armistice

Finland signed an armistice with USSR in September 1944 without even losing Helsinki. After that time Finland helped Russia forcing German units out of Finland, but didn't participate outside Finland.

So we could simulate Finland by destroying German units still in Finland and then turn Finland into a neutral country where USSR can't move further into. So we could send all Soviet units inside Finland to the force pool.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:21 pm

This means the Soviets can't move to all Finnish ports and use them to sail transports to Germany. They can only use the port in Leningrad, Riga and Tallinn.

For this to work we need to figure out the precondition for Finland to ask for an armistice. Preconditions could be:
1. Tallinn and Joensuu are Russian controlled
2. Less than 6 Axis units inside Finland

When this occurs then Finland will ask for armistice and USSR can reject it or accept it. If they reject it then they must take Helsinki and force a surrender. If they accept it then all units within Finland will be sent to the force pool and Finland turn to neutrality plus all German units in Finland will be destroyed.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:39 pm

We could simulate this by letting all Romanian units still left on the map when Bucharest is captured to change to Russian control instead of being destroyed. – YES; however, we need to decide if this applies to Romania units deployed outside of the Eastern Front or the Balkans (e.g., France). This could; however, be an incentive for the axis player to use Romanian units in a more historically manner if we didn’t place any restrictions on where the units were that turned. For example, a Romanian unit guarding a French port when Romania fell would turn to Russian and effectively give over a port to the allies to use in France. This would be significant incentive for the axis player not to use Romanian units in France.

Bulgaria did the same as Romania and DoW'ed Germany in September 1944. Bulgarian forces helped the Russians liberate Yugoslavia– YES; with the same consideration discussed above for Romania

Hungary cooperated with Germany and they Hungarian armies surrendered with the German armies when Budapest fell in February 1945. So the Hungarians did not change side. – YES.

So we could simulate Finland by destroying German units still in Finland and then turn Finland into a neutral country where USSR can't move further into. So we could send all Soviet units inside Finland to the force pool. – YES.
For this to work we need to figure out the precondition for Finland to ask for an armistice. Preconditions could be:
1. Tallinn and Joensuu are Russian controlled
2. Less than 6 Axis units inside Finland. – YES, or if Helsinki is captured.

gerones · Post by **gerones** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:09 pm

I vote yes to this.

NotaPacifist · Post by **NotaPacifist** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:08 pm

I can agree with this.

pk867 · Post by **pk867** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:11 pm

I agree with Borger's proposal.

schwerpunkt · Post by **schwerpunkt** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:32 pm

The only concern I have with Tallinn and Joensuu is the window between the Germany DOW and Tallinn falling. If we switch the II Finnish INF corps and VI Finnish GAR so that an INF starts in Joensuu this might not be an issue. Otherwise we could make Kuopio the trigger rather than Joensuu if we see the russians capturing Joensuu in the June-Aug 1941 period before Tallinn falls to the Germans.

st14z · Post by **st14z** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:21 am

Where in GS map is Joensuu?
i know where it is in RL

In wars Finland fought during ww2, city of Viipuri was very important and losing Viipuri (second largest city) should trigger events rather than remote city Joensuu.

Tapio

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:39 am

I moved the garrison in Joensuu to Kuopio and added a corps in Joensuu. Also remember that another prerequisite is that Finland has less than 6 units remaining in Finland. They start the game with 9 or 10 units. So I can't see how Russia in 1941 can finish off the Finns even if they take Joensuu and hold Tallinn. Quite often the Axis have taken Norway so a German unit will pop-up in Finland.

So the Russians must first grind down the Axis presence in Finland before they're offered an armistice. So some times the Russians will have to take Helsinki to force a surrender. They might want to do it anyway to get the Finnish ports.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:42 am

st14z wrote:Where in GS map is Joensuu?
i know where it is in RL

In wars Finland fought during ww2, city of Viipuri was very important and losing Viipuri (second largest city) should trigger events rather than remote city Joensuu.

Tapio

Joensuu and Kuopio are added to the map for the next version you will get by the end of the week. I even added another Finnish corps. Now the II and IV corps are located near Leningrad. The VI corps in Joensuu, the VII corps in Helsinki. The other units are garrisons spread in different cities. A German corps will spawn in Finland if Norway is Axis. The Germans can even sail more corps units to Finland just at the start of Barbarossa to bolster the forces there.

Since the Axis can rail in Finland it means you can land a German corps in Hanko and rail it to Joensuu the next turn. So I think the Axis won't lose Finland early unless they ignore Finland completely.

It's not possible to place Viipuri on the map because it would be adjacent to Leningrad. Viipuri (Vyborg) will be on the Russian side after the winter war.

schwerpunkt · Post by **schwerpunkt** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:28 am

Stauffenberg wrote:
st14z wrote:Where in GS map is Joensuu?
i know where it is in RL

In wars Finland fought during ww2, city of Viipuri was very important and losing Viipuri (second largest city) should trigger events rather than remote city Joensuu.

Tapio
Joensuu and Kuopio are added to the map for the next version you will get by the end of the week. I even added another Finnish corps. Now the II and IV corps are located near Leningrad. The VI corps in Joensuu, the VII corps in Helsinki. The other units are garrisons spread in different cities. A German corps will spawn in Finland if Norway is Axis. The Germans can even sail more corps units to Finland just at the start of Barbarossa to bolster the forces there.

Since the Axis can rail in Finland it means you can land a German corps in Hanko and rail it to Joensuu the next turn. So I think the Axis won't lose Finland early unless they ignore Finland completely.

It's not possible to place Viipuri on the map because it would be adjacent to Leningrad. Viipuri (Vyborg) will be on the Russian side after the winter war.

I agree - from what I've read Viipuri was more important during the Winter War. By the time it fell during the Continuation War, things were looking grim anyway north of Lake Ladoga and in Estonia.

KingHunter3059 · Post by **KingHunter3059** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:15 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:This means the Soviets can't move to all Finnish ports and use them to sail transports to Germany. They can only use the port in Leningrad, Riga and Tallinn.

For this to work we need to figure out the precondition for Finland to ask for an armistice. Preconditions could be:
1. Tallinn and Joensuu are Russian controlled
2. Less than 6 Axis units inside Finland

When this occurs then Finland will ask for armistice and USSR can reject it or accept it. If they reject it then they must take Helsinki and force a surrender. If they accept it then all units within Finland will be sent to the force pool and Finland turn to neutrality plus all German units in Finland will be destroyed.

I do concur, however on number 2 - I would propose 'Less than 2' units.

schwerpunkt · Post by **schwerpunkt** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:31 pm

KingHunter wrote:
Stauffenberg wrote:This means the Soviets can't move to all Finnish ports and use them to sail transports to Germany. They can only use the port in Leningrad, Riga and Tallinn.

For this to work we need to figure out the precondition for Finland to ask for an armistice. Preconditions could be:
1. Tallinn and Joensuu are Russian controlled
2. Less than 6 Axis units inside Finland

When this occurs then Finland will ask for armistice and USSR can reject it or accept it. If they reject it then they must take Helsinki and force a surrender. If they accept it then all units within Finland will be sent to the force pool and Finland turn to neutrality plus all German units in Finland will be destroyed.
I do concur, however on number 2 - I would propose 'Less than 2' units.

hmmm, 2 sounds a too low to me. If the Finns had that few units left they'd be desperate for an armistice. Less than 5 sounds better to me given that the Finns will start off with 4 INF corps and 4 GAR. Gives a little more margin for error as its pretty easy to lose a GAR and an INF. Certainly will encourage the axis play to keep the GARs out of harms way.

On the other hand though with the Finns beefed up a little, less than 6 may work ok.....

With respect to what happens to non-Finnish units after the armistice, I think they should be returned to the pool, as historically, the Finns did actually give the Germans a short time to withdraw their units - only the German units in northern Finland were actually subject to combat by Finnish forces according to my references.

KingHunter3059 · Post by **KingHunter3059** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:38 pm

schwerpunkt wrote:
KingHunter wrote:
Stauffenberg wrote:This means the Soviets can't move to all Finnish ports and use them to sail transports to Germany. They can only use the port in Leningrad, Riga and Tallinn.

For this to work we need to figure out the precondition for Finland to ask for an armistice. Preconditions could be:
1. Tallinn and Joensuu are Russian controlled
2. Less than 6 Axis units inside Finland

When this occurs then Finland will ask for armistice and USSR can reject it or accept it. If they reject it then they must take Helsinki and force a surrender. If they accept it then all units within Finland will be sent to the force pool and Finland turn to neutrality plus all German units in Finland will be destroyed.
I do concur, however on number 2 - I would propose 'Less than 2' units.
hmmm, 2 sounds a too low to me. If the Finns had that few units left they'd be desperate for an armistice. Less than 5 sounds better to me given that the Finns will start off with 4 INF corps and 4 GAR. Gives a little more margin for error as its pretty easy to lose a GAR and an INF. Certainly will encourage the axis play to keep the GARs out of harms way.

On the other hand though with the Finns beefed up a little, less than 6 may work ok.....

With respect to what happens to non-Finnish units after the armistice, I think they should be returned to the pool, as historically, the Finns did actually give the Germans a short time to withdraw their units - only the German units in northern Finland were actually subject to combat by Finnish forces according to my references.

Oh - I thought we were excluding the Finnish units? Or are they included in this total?

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:06 pm

Total checked is sum of Axis units in Finland, i. e. Finnish and non-Finnish units

BuddyGrant · Post by **BuddyGrant** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:34 pm

We could simulate this by letting all Romanian units still left on the map when Bucharest is captured to change to Russian control instead of being destroyed. Yes, as long as we can avoid gamey issues like Romanian units in the west suddenly fighting for the soviets. For example, Could we, for example, limit this side switch to all Romanian units within Romania or Russia? Romanian units elsewhere could be considered surrendered and therefore destroyed.

Bulgaria did the same as Romania and DoW'ed Germany in September 1944. Bulgarian forces helped the Russians liberate Yugoslavia Yes, as long as there can be a similar qualifier as described above.

Hungary cooperated with Germany and they Hungarian armies surrendered with the German armies when Budapest fell in February 1945. So the Hungarians did not change side. Yes, as long as there can be a similar qualifier as described above.

So we could simulate Finland by destroying German units still in Finland and then turn Finland into a neutral country where USSR can't move further into. So we could send all Soviet units inside Finland to the force pool.
For this to work we need to figure out the precondition for Finland to ask for an armistice. Preconditions could be:
1. Tallinn and Joensuu are Russian controlled
2. Less than 6 Axis units inside Finland.
Yes to Finland as neutral and Soviets within Finland going to the force pool, but no on destroying any German units in Finland - IMO they should go to the force pool as well as they almost certainly would have had a chance to evacuate.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:10 am

I've now coded this and did the following:

• Added code so Romania and Bulgaria will join the Allies once Bucharest and Sofia are captured by the Allies.
A side effect of this is that the Germans might get a nasty surprise if they use Bulgarian or Romanian units
to garrison cities. These will change side when these countries join the Allies. That's especially bad if the
units were garrisoning a port hex.
• Added code so Finland will sign an armistice with USSR if 2+ cities in Finland / Estonia and <6 Axis units
are present in Finland.
- When the armistice is signed then Finland turns to neutrality and all Finnish units as removed.
- All Axis and Soviet units in Finland are moved to the force pool
- Finland will surrender normally if Helsinki is captured. So Russia should avoid taking too many cities or
kill too many units if they intend to take Helsinki so they can use the Finnish ports.

The armistice basically removes Finland from the active playing area. Finland is neutral with no units and can't
be DoW'ed. That is a good way for Russia to disengage from Finland and relocate their units to the main front.
• Added messages for the events regarding Romania, Bulgaria and Finland

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:13 am

Since the Axis player knows that if he places Romanian or Bulgarian units in the west then he can lose the cities these units garrison, then this will be less interesting to do. So we might stop the play where the Axis minors were used in front sections they didn't fight in. Everything is up to the Axis player. If he takes the risk then he will deal with the consequences.

Most Axis players will probably use the Romanian units in suicide attacks against the Russians just prior to the fall of Bucharest, just to weaken these units before they change side.

BuddyGrant · Post by **BuddyGrant** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:25 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:Since the Axis player knows that if he places Romanian or Bulgarian units in the west then he can lose the cities these units garrison, then this will be less interesting to do. So we might stop the play where the Axis minors were used in front sections they didn't fight in. Everything is up to the Axis player. If he takes the risk then he will deal with the consequences.

This is not a major concern given the small number of axis minors units in the game, but I hope you reconsider this proposed solution. I think it's historically reasonable that Germany would use Romanian/Hungarian/Bulgarian units in the west. The countries involved would not be thrilled with this decision but neither were they thrilled to be very far east of their national borders either. To have these units stationed in the west suddenly turn into Russian units in France is not realistic at all. These minor country soldiers in the west would either continue fighting to some degree (as actually happened on various fronts in WW2) or be taken prisoner. Is it too complicated programmatically to have them (minor country units in the west) disappear when their capital is taken by the Russians? Perhaps it would be easier if all Romanian/Hungarian/Bulgarian units just disappeared when their capital was captured, and just new minor country units (spawned in January) could join the war on the side of their their new major power?